[ SECRET POST #2309 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2309 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 068 secrets from Secret Submission Post #330.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 = - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Now, Robb married Talisa because of love, which makes him incredibly selfish and irresponsible, which makes him less sympathetic as a character.

But from a modern standpoint, his love for her makes him *more* sympathetic to us. He's breaking from the status quo, and marrying someone that is a good person and who he has genuine feelings for. That's (hopefully) the type of relationship we the viewers hope to have with someone. Sure, his marriage to Talisa makes Robb less Ned-like, since it won't be The Pursuit of Honor that will be his downfall. Instead, it's more of a doomed romance thing. Which I'm actually ok with. I'd like for someone in Westeros to at least have a halfways-fulfilling romantic life for once.

[lieu]

I fail to see how a grown man who is engaged in a important political betrothal deciding to marry someone else with no political power of her own and willfully ignoring the wishes of his lords and his mother because he's thinking with his dick makes him more sympathetic.

ED: And he's not just a lord, he's a king currently at war, meaning his actions have very large ripple effects. But apparently ~young love~ is worth compromising your whole military campaign, I guess.

[(Anonymous)]

Robb's not very good at king-ing, is he? He's great in the field, but he's terrible in the practical matters, like making and keeping alliances. He's a lot like King Robert... he can lead a damn fine rebellion, but makes for a really crummy king. And that is what ASoIF really boils down to: the questions of what makes a good leader.

[sugar_spun]

Yes and no. Robb would be an excellent king (at least, of the Northerners who share his ideals and culture) in peace time, I imagine. But he abides too strictly by the tenants of his father, favoring his personal honor even when his personal honor is going to end up getting other people--including himself--killed.

But that's still a 10x better reason than young love.

[(Anonymous)]

Totally agreed. It makes me wish Ned were still alive to slap him upside the head.

[(Anonymous)]

Because Ned was a perfect dude who never made selfish choices? Whatever, man.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow so parents aren't allowed to scold their children unless they're perfect people?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, actually. Hypocrites can fuck off.

[fauxkaren]

No, he wasn't perfect.

But he did marry a woman that he'd never met for political reasons. So he might know a bit about that subject.

It's funny that people say that Robb died because he was too much like Ned because it's actually kind of the opposite.

Robb married Jeyne (ignoring his politically necessary promise to marry a Frey girl) possibly in part because he didn't want to leave her with a bastard after seeing what happened with Jon.

Ned on the other hand, did his duty and married Catelyn even though she was a stranger to him because it politically necessary.

Uh, Spoiler alert?

[(Anonymous)]

.

[sabotabby]

That's what I was going to say. We get to know (and hopefully like) her as a character, and it makes sense that Robb would fall for her and want to marry her over some chick he's never met. And then we get to see how a modern conception of romance works out in the GoT universe—which to me is much more interesting than having Robb's downfall be Ned 2.0.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, way to miss the whole point.

[aubry]

But a modern conception of love doesn't work out in the GoT universe without completely shattering the whole way that world works. Westeros is a pre-industrial, feudal, and courtly society. Concepts of family and marriage and reproduction are innately political there. Ideas we've been developing for the last quarter of a millennium about individualism and the public/private divide make no sense in Westeros.

From a Westerosi point of view what Robb has done should outrage everybody - by all the standards that make their society work he's done something reprehensible. Far worse than his decision in the book (and in the book it was already pretty damn bad). The fact that nobody in the show is reacting the way they ought basically destabilises the rules of how this society works for every other storyline. And for what? I'm sorry I get ranty on this, but it's not like Hot White Twenty-Something Dude falls for Hot White Twenty-Something Dudette Who Fancies Him Back So They Do it is an under-explored narrative.

[sabotabby]

But it's going to blow up in their faces. If it worked out, I would be totally pissed.

[lieu]

Just FYI, Oona Chaplin (the actress who plays Talisa) isn't white (she's Chilean,) and IMO Jeyne Westerling (descendent of Maggy the Frog, family from Volantis, mentioned more than once to have undesirable blood from her mother's side) isn't either. But other than that IA 100% with this comment.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with this. Bucking social norms in Westeros is okay with me, given how social norms in Westeros have resulted in a loathed caste of bastards and bucketload after bucketload of raging, violent, pants-pissing misogyny.

[(Anonymous)]

But if bucking social norms is as easy as Talissa makes it look, you kind of have to wonder about all those gonks who keep going around getting themselves murdered and raped and oppressed when they could just decide to be super awesome and sassy and not oppressed instead.

I mean, Daenerys has had five books' worth of storyline entirely devoted to how difficult it is to fight oppression even when you have a giant army, a blood right to the traditional sources of power, a network of conspirators working on your behalf and three frickin' dragons to help you.

[gabzillaz]

But from a modern standpoint, his love for her makes him *more* sympathetic to us

Not really.

He's being selfish and putting his side in danger, I don't see this as sympathetic. In the book it was stupid, but he did it to save her honour. Now it's because of ~young love~. It doesn't help that Robb is older in the show.

[(Anonymous)]

It might make him more sympathetic if he was just some random guy whose love story concerns only himself and his love interest. But he's a king, he has responsibilies, and his actions have consequences not just for him, but for all the lords and the soldiers following him. Even for a modern viewer, a character who does what he wants and ignores his responbilities is selfish, not sympathetic.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you but I actually hate the doomed romance thing. Robb died in the book because he made a stupid fucking decision in the name of honor, not ~true love~. I feel like the writers for the TV show put him on a pedestal.

[sugar_spun]

I think that's obviously what the show runners were thinking and how they thought we'd feel, but I don't think that at all.

He has absolute power. If he says "go to war", his kingdom or demesne has to go to war with him. By accepting this power, and by wielding it, he should also be accepting the responsibility (thanks Uncle Ben!) that comes with it. His war has led to countless civilian deaths. Does it suck that he has to marry for duty, rather than love? Yes, but this is a sacrifice he makes in exchange for all the sacrifices he's requiring of basically everyone else.

And then he throws that away for Talisa. Not out of honor, but just because he likes her and thinks she's hot. Who in my opinion, is a bland and entirely forgettable as a love interest. Maybe as a character on her own I could have appreciated her, but being a love interest means I need to see what Robb sees in her, and I don't see anything.

I don't think this is a far-flung ideal that we can't associate with ourselves any more.

[visp]

This. If I was a lord in his army I'd be like "I'm getting my ass kicked in battle, sleeping in mud, risking and losing my own soldiers, and you can't even be bothered to not put your dick in the wrong place? Oh, you found marrying for political power too much of a burden? Well, that's no problem, I'll just go to my troops and tell them the man they're dying for wanted more of them to die so that he could marry his crush. They'll understand."

Although I have to disagree with not seeing what Rob sees in her. She's strong, brave, beautiful, caring, and kind. People have fallen in love over less.

[world_eater]

They definitely made a point of showing how horrified he was at the prospect of having to marry an ugly girl and then they introduce this new character and she's nice and pretty and -whoops, married. Really, the show fails spectacularly to make me stand behind them, because I never get to see anything that makes me believe in their relationship, anything that makes me believe that there is more to their choice than "don't want to marry icky girl from bumfuck nowhere, better get this hottie here fast".

[agnes_bean]

This is definitely what the showrunners were going for. But TBH from my POV -- and clearly a lot of people agree -- they did not do a good enough job with this love story to at all justify the stupidity and irresponsibility of Robb's actions. From this modern girl's POV, I barely buy that they are actually in love, as opposed to lust/honeymoon period of an early relationship.

Honestly, they should have realized there just was not enough screen time to build a romance strong enough to justify Robb's choices.

[(Anonymous)]

No, it doesn't. It makes me dislike him.