[ SECRET POST #2351 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2350 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 113 secrets from Secret Submission Post #336.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah she started off great, then got less mature every other time she turned up. It is almost like we were watching her life in reverse.

[lex_antonia]

Yeah, but the fact that it makes sense, strictly speaking, doesn't mean it wasn't insufferable to watch. Or well written.

I used to be a big fan of Moffat's writing, but he hasn't really produced a good DW script since Sherlock became big.

[fenm]

He hasn't produced a good Sherlock script since than, either.

[lex_antonia]

I did like the first 80 minutes of Bohemia.

[(Anonymous)]

Were you watching it in an alternate universe? Because after the first ten minutes, "A Scandal in Belgravia" started to go downhill, and it never really stopped until it went CLUNK on the bottom.

[elephantinegrace]

It didn't even stop then. I'm pretty sure I've watched Glee episodes better than Scandal in Belgravia, and nobody hates Glee more than me.

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly this. Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it was well written. Sure, her progression is logical, but if you're trying to write a central character that the audience is supposed to root for, you can surely make her enjoyable as you go along in her retrograde progression.

[intrigueing]

Nah, it's not that. I would have no problem if that's all it was. The problem is that her backstory is complete crap, and it would have been complete crap whether her life was being watched forwards OR backwards.

However, when a character is really problematically written, and the writer goes "well shit, this is kind of bad" and takes pains to fix the problem as the character gets older, that's admirable because that's improving a character. Or, if it's done REALLY well, it's cool if the writer is psyching out the audience by playing with their expectations of misogynistic stereotypes before unexpectedly developing her.

However, there's no excuse for making a really great character and then undermining her by writing a really misogynistic backstory, especially when it's not portrayed as awful and fucked-up in-universe.

And doubly so, given that we never really do see how she got over herself and matured from Wedding-River to Demon's Run-River.

[fenm]

psyching out the audience by playing with their expectations of misogynistic stereotypes before unexpectedly developing her.

See: Elementary and its subversion of "Fridging".

[nyxelestia]

I'm not going to say I love River or her character, but how was her backstory not portrayed as a terrible thing in the show?

[intrigueing]

It was portrayed as BAD of course, but it wasn't portrayed as sexist. Her being raised to kill and revolve around the Doctor is portrayed as tragic but romantic, not something gross and creepy that she overcame. She never has a storyline showing her throwing off the sexist overtones of her backstory and coming into her own - the plot of her life being all about the Doctor is never subverted. When she goes "fuck you, Kovarian", it's not to reaffirm control over her own life or destiny, it's still all about how she's convinced she loves the Doctor more than the entire universe does. When she thinks she's escaped at the end of Let's Kill Hitler, she doesn't take up archeology because she likes it, she does it to find the Doctor. And none of the characters comment on or discuss the fact that her backstory follows disturbingly sexist patterns, nor does the narrative do it through comparison or contrast or symbolism.

Basically, yeah, her backstory is portrayed as "oh, poor unfortunate River", but it gets really fucking frustrating when the type of "oh, poor unfortunate River" that Moffat chose to write is one with so many glaringly misogynistic stereotypes and messages, and one that involves so many tropes that have been repeatedly, incessantly applied to female characters throughout the years to the point of being pretty offensive. There's a difference between a horrible past that is feminist and empowers the character through her struggles, and a horrible past that is loaded with sexist stereotypes.

Basically, ditto to femn's comment: it's okay to choose to write a troubled backstory these days with sexist stereotypes if you plan to intentionally subvert them, but Moffat didn't. Which makes a lot of people go "and you felt you just had to write this story for the woman who married the Doctor, especially without any other female characters to provide a contrasting example, because....?"

Which is all more a criticism of Moffat's writing choices than of River as a person. It wouldn't take too much extra writing and development to make her character empowered -- which is why I think River Song is one of the characters most ripe for fanfic.

And of course, I wouldn't mind the writing for River Song's character remotely as much if she was the only example. But Moffat writes ALL his female characters with similar issues of varying levels.