[ SECRET POST #2356 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2356 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 134 secrets from Secret Submission Post #336.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Er, what? Why? SJ discussions are not by and large entirely negative. That's a caricature.

[(Anonymous)]

A vile accuracy!

[(Anonymous)]

I have never once seen a conversation begin with "I just want to say that I was satisfied with the accurate and respectful portrayal of [racial/ethnic/sexual/gender group of choice] in this show!"

[elephantinegrace]

Really? I've participated in a lot of Elementary discussions, and that's practically all we talk about.

[(Anonymous)]

And, unlikely as it seems, I've been in Doctor Who comms and fandoms and had discussions exactly that. Well, until an SJW barged in and started demanding that we admit we were all wrong because of their twisted version of events.

[(Anonymous)]

That's usually because saying that would be a lie.

That doesn't mean that people can't enjoy the fuck about other aspects of the show.

[darkmanifest]

I have no idea what cesspits you frequent, then, because I see tons of discussion where even the vilest SJWs get the positive aspects of whatever they're about to tear apart out of the way. That's how criticism usually goes in my experience, you lead with the pros before you approach the cons, especially when those cons are either equal to the pros or the meat of the discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

Dreamwidth forums, F!S for example, and lj FFR and its various associates. And any other forum, messageboard, or mailing list that an SJW has infested. Those sjsewage pits

[darkmanifest]

I left fanficrants ages ago for precisely this reason, it was a dogpiling wankpit long before the SJWs moved in and could only ever get worse. F!S has pretty balanced discussion (case doesn't either babysit or tolerate excessive bullshit), and dedicated fandom comms and kink memes are pretty great about shutting down wank for the benefit of all, in my experience. As for tumblr, as long as I stay away from their attempts at "debate" (i.e. screaming), I can enjoy the pretty pictures, squeeing, silliness, and headcanons. This is just what's worked for me in fandom, I hope you find your own methods.

And probably...just leave fanficrants. Please. I don't even want to think about how bad it's gotten since I bounced the fuck out of there.

[(Anonymous)]

A lot of people seem to assume that if someone criticizes a show that that means that they have to hate that show and every aspect of it, which frankly baffles me. You can have interesting and engaging discussions about things that you find wrong with a show and they`re not necessarily full of hate or negativity. A lot of times when people discuss those things, it`s because they really like the show in question and the issue that they`re discussing is something they`d like to see approached differently.

I think the whole idea that all discussions of SJ issues are inherently full of vitriol and awfulness comes from the warped perception of SJ that`s in place on certain areas of the internet. There are some fans out there who are incredibly antagonistic and my-opinion-is-the-only-right-one about such things, which makes some people leery. But those people are generally wankers, and it is possible to have conversations that don`t fit that caricature, as you said. And if people just want to enjoy the fandom and don`t want to join in those kind of discussions, that`s cool! Just avoid them. But saying they have no place in general discussion communities at all is a bit ridiculous.

[(Anonymous)]

+1000

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is that the caricature is pervasive in many large fandom corners that constitute some people's primary or esclusive area of participation. Now, I am definitely not in agreement that any kind desired discussion should be off limits in a general community, but I do think there needs to be acknowledgement that there is a not uncommon trend in the highly active areas of numerous fandoms, towards SJ discussion being essentially a set up.

Fan A: It doesn't make me hate the show or anything because I can still like things that are problematic, but could we talk about how Character X did that totally racist thing?
Fan B: Hey, interesting topic! I didn't see it as racist at all, here's why.
Fan A: Well, you obviously just can't see it because of your privilege. Have your people come collect you, child.

There is no winning there. If you disagree with a claim that something is problematic in certain ways (racism, sexism, classism, ablism, etc.) then you have to either be smart enough to keep your mouth shut and not offer up your own view on things, or ready to have serious name-calling thrown your way.

It would probably help things a lot of people would get it through their heads that neither ignorance, nor being comparatively early on in the process of learning, automatically make someone any kind of -ist. I am so tired to seeing people who are genuinely trying to keep open minds, learn, and often overcome a lifetime of being taught contrary viewpoints, get called racists, sexists, homophobes, and the like. All because it makes a growing number of SJWs feel good about themselves from their pedestals of "well, I am socially hip enough to recognize these issues and care about them with my entire, enlightened, profusely bleeding heart." They then call down the message that anyone not parroting the socially acceptable part line is emphatically some kind of undesirable scum who should sit down and shut up because everything about them is invalid.

The real kicker is that you're also not allowed to ask to discuss these things at least without the offensive name-calling, because then you're making a tone argument and you should shut up even more. I so very much wish more people actually understood what a tone argument is, because it's become nothing but a frequently misapplied substitute for "shut up until you agree with me, asshole."

Is this every person interested in and talking about SJ issues online? No. But it's a lot of people, so that fact that there are also a lot of people who are sick of feeling attacked and belittled and scorned if they try to participate in good faith is really not at all surprising.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing that hits my own personal berserk button is when THEY, the Temporarily-Able-Bodied SJW that they are, try to tell ME what I should think/feel/believe ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCES as a PWD.

I have also read POC saying that SJWs have said/done the same thing to them. And the SJWs scream and cry that we're the people they're "trying to help" -- the people they are trying to infantilize, is more like it. Which is just another form of racism/ableism/etc-ism.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god yeah. They want to wrap us in cotton wool, treat us like poor broken, fragile children, then expect us to be fucking grateful for it. Keyboard warriors for social justice are the antithesis of the social equality movement. They are so fucking clueless.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, what is killing me lately is how intersectionality has become a buzz word that lets them pick and choose which hat to wear each day. They get to be oppressed AND get brownie points for checking their privilege left and right. I don't know how they don't just get and stay too dizzy to type all their patronizing rants.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS. I have had people lambast me because I didn't find a show that portrayed MY OWN DISABILITY as offensive. I thought it was a funny and accurate depiction of my disorder and I enjoyed watching it because I could relate to the character in question.

[(Anonymous)]

was it Monk?

[(Anonymous)]

Well said!! You have said what I think many of us wanted to, and so very eloquently. Thank you!!!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I agree that there are people out there who are very black-and-white in their thinking and the way they approach these issues. I think that can be said of both people who want to talk about SJ issues and people, like some of the commenters in this thread, who think that fandom should only ever be used to discuss positive aspects of something and that anyone who wants to or does differently is somehow doing fandom wrong or ruining fandom for everyone. There are people who are assholes, and I get why some people are defensive when they've had bad experiences.

OTOH, I also do think that some people have a knee-jerk tendency to assume that if someone has a different reaction to something, then that means that that person is judging them. There are some people who take comments like "I'm not really a fan of this character because I thought their portrayal was a bit racist" as a judgment call on them for liking that character, which isn't the case. Unless that person is being an immovable asshole about it and saying that if anyone who likes that character is racist, that is not what that statement means, and it is actually possible to have discussions between people with differing interpretations and opinions on a character, story arc, etc. that are civil. It's just that the wanky, uncivil stuff is what stands out more for people.

Are there SJWs in fandom? Yes, and they can be loud and rude, just like any assholes in fandom (or life in general) are. Are there as many as a lot of people seem to think there are? I don't really think so. I think that SJWs have become the new thing to blame (along with Tumblr) for The Great Decline and Ruination of Fandom, and some people like to throw the term around and accuse people of being SJWs down just to shut down discussions or opinions that disagree with their view of a fandom, and that's not cool, either. People should stop being assholes on all sides.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I will preface this by saying that obviously you don't know me, so will just have to take my word for whatever it's worth, i.e., here are my thoughts, do with them what you will, no pressure.

The thing is, I do agree that there is blame-worthy behavior on both sides. I'm cringing at the Only Fun Ever idiot upthread (downthread? I've lost track) because that really is simply OTT and that person long ago crossed the line from expressing it as an opinion to being an asshole about it.

But I will say that what has bothered me enough to even post in this thread is that, based on my experiences and observations in the handful of fandoms I have dabbled in over the past year or so, I don't think that this boils down to a just a few extremist assholes on either end of the spectrum and everyone else being knee-jerk or over-exaggerating the problem. I used to be highly, openly active in fandom, but I have completely lost the ability to enjoy it and bowed out almost entirely. This is not because I have ever even been attacked by a SJW. I haven't. Part of me would love to believe that I'm a perfect ray of respectful sunshine and have never said or done anything that could possibly offend a single person, but that part of me is delusional. I believe more that I have been lucky not to cross the wrong person, and that that luck could run out at any moment if I dare to just be myself in all my imperfections. It may not have been directed at me but I have repeatedly been horrified at things I've seen others subjected to for minimal slights if their apology wasn't fast enough or didn't grovel quite hard enough. I am not talking about once, or twice, or a handful of times, but again and again and again. More people may be complaining about it because it is happening more often.

So am I little defensive and resentful due to the impact of this on what once was fun? Absolutely. However, I try very hard to stay aware of those emotional reactions to keep them in check vis-a-vis my intellectual reactions. I don't like being a knee-jerk reactionist any more than I like being a hypocrite. I want to be very clear that I don't want to paint everyone who cares and talks about social justice stuff with the same brush. There are multitudes of incredibly thoughtful, reasonable, kind people having great discussions that can actually serve to be really enlightening and opportunities for others to even be exposed to other viewpoints. I also completely agree that there are people who will do exactly what you describe in calling anyone discussing social justice an SJW as the same kind of "shut up, you blowhard" accusatory label as I've complained about in reverse. I do not mean to act like that doesn't happen or anything.

However. I think that the degree to which a minority but seemingly growing contingent of SJWs (and I personally only apply the 'W' to the ones I think go too far and actually do make fandom feel like being at war over everything) are incredibly loud and routinely, cruelly rude, is a huge problem- one the nature of which, as I described above, is difficult to every fight back against without getting defensive or hurt or sounding like we just want any negative talk to be shut down. How do you push back against militant political correctness without sounding willfully politically incorrect? The SJWs are essentially flipping a two-headed coin every single time and forget winning; there's no way to even break even in that kind of game.

So overall what really bothers me is that the impact I have been seeing- and have talked to at least a few other people about who if nothing else confirm to me that I'm not completely alone in the universe- goes beyond specific people who (sometimes very unfairly, sometimes by deliberately poking the bear) get attacked, but to the people who do not want it to happen to them and have no way of knowing which corner it might be lurking around. Are most fans engaging on a rational level? I'm willing to hazard that guess. But you can't always tell the ones who aren't until it's too late- and that has made me for one unwilling to put myself out there the way I used to without a second thought. That's my decision, and I own it, but that doesn't mean I'm not upset over the roots of it.

[(Anonymous)]

This, completely. The more time I spend critiquing something, the more I enjoyed it. I don't care about things I straight up dislike, I don't want to take them apart and compare the good with the bad, I don't want to squee over what was awesome and debate about what could have been better. I don't want to explore different perspectives or examine the narrative or even read fanfiction or participate in fandom at all. My criticism is enthusiasm, and as much as I wish SJWs hadn't completely taken over fandom discussion, I don't regret having my mind opened to problematic aspects of what I enjoy. All it does is help me devise better ways to defend what I enjoy.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, yes they are. It's a bunch of whining about how they didn't like the episode b/c of sexism, racism, etc. And they tend to do it to someone's squee post. They'll post about how much they liked the episode and here comes the SJW telling them all about how they're wrong for liking the episode--it was full of sexism, etc. And they won't go away until you agree w/them. It's obnoxious. Go away, SJW, no one cares. I tend to think they're all trolls b/c of this behavior.

[(Anonymous)]

They've got to do it in squee posts, and positive posts, because they aren't interested in discussing the issues. They are out to either convert others or show off how hip and socially aware they are being better than others. Neither motivation lends itself to discussion amongst like minded souls, they've got to take it to the heathen as it were. Ego boosting and attention whoring is the SJ stock in trade.