fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2381 ]

[ SECRET POST #2381 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2381 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Horrible Histories]

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03.

[Galileo, Strawberry Night]

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04.

[Star Trek]

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05.

[Sphere]

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06.

[Malcom Tucker (played by Peter Capaldi) in The Thick of It]

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07.

[Coupling]

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08.

[ROM Spaceknight]

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09.

[Avengers]

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10.

[My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic]

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11.

[Lizzie Bennet Diaries]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 023 secrets from Secret Submission Post #340.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

You said there was nothing wrong with what OP wrote when they divided everyone into cis, inter, and trans, assuming sex and gender are the same as used in colloquial speech. To which I pointed out agender people exist that don't fit into any category, meaning more categories that those must necessarily exist. You replied with a semantic argument in which you said "hetero" should mean "different," and I replied that using literal meanings, "trans" means "beyond, across, or outside of" which would mean agender people fall under the "trans" umbrella. Which I don't feel is correct. Did I miss something? Honest question.

I disputed the obviously incorrect assessment of their views: "so you're someone who refuses to acknowledge the difference between gender and sex then im done bye" That was the full text of the comment I replied to, and I replied to it because it was obviously wrong.

I'm not agender so I've no response to your queries about how they should identify.

Oh. I see. How do you feel about OP's original comment and their 3 point system instead of the standard 2 point binary, then?

AHAHAHAHA "2 point binary"

anyway

how do I feel about it? Not sure why you're asking. But, we've established OP was a layman who is frustrated with the plethora of terminology. They, very confusingly, grouped intersex with trans which I'm pretty sure indicates that they don't know what intersex means, and are mistakenly assuming it means what's usually called genderqueer. (I think this is the case because they're using it as a third category next to trans). If I'm right, all they said was that they recognise that some people are trans and some people are neither binary-trans nor cis, but they don't care about the plethora of identifiers used. (They also reified cisgender by saying 'a sex' to mean 'cis' by default; almost everyone outside of a few tiny corners of the internet does that.)

So tl;dr a person who expressed a dislike of gender terminology proliferation came in and said some gender terminology wrong, and someone else responded by making obviously incorrect assumptions about their intent.

I've said before that this kind of language policing is entirely about establishing shibboleths. That is one of the things I hate most about this kind of pigeonholing; it's often doesn't stop at navel-gazing, it turns into this cultural war where if you don't know the right, latest, hot-off-tumblr words you get told to leave the treehouse.

I didn't "group intersex with trans," I made a list. And intersex happened to come after trans in it.

That's...seriously inexplicable. Most intersex people are cisgender, so IDGI.

I...don't get what's so inexplicable, and I'm beginning to wonder if YOU know what intersex is? Because, intersex is literally, having bits of both sex. I'm not trying to somehow magically relate it to trans. They're separate things. I could have just as easily made a list that went "intersex, sex, trans" and the point would have been the same.

No, that's not what intersex is. Intersex means having any congenital condition (there are several) that leads you to be born with an ambiguous physical sex, most commonly ambiguous genitals. (Other varieties include chromosome disorders (Klinefelter's syndrome), androgen insensitivity syndrome in girls, undescended testicles in boys, etc). Ambiguous genitals are often 'corrected' at birth, so a lot of people don't even know they were intersex and are now physically indistinguishable from everyone else. Being intersex may or may not affect someone's gender identity, but most intersex people are cisgender, just like everyone else.

different anon

i think that's what the anon you replied to is saying?

DA

pretty sure what they mean is

male sex = male
female sex = female
trans = female that identifies as male sex or male that identifies as female sex
intersex = both female and male sex

so all the people you are talking about, anon would see as either intersex because they were born physically intersex and stayed intersex, or trans male sex/trans female sex since they physically started intersex whether they identified as it or not and now ID as another sex

also pretty sure this is why the anon arguing with them above said they were discounting gender.

It isn't about the particular terms so much as the broad classifications implying a refusal to acknowledge that other categories exist at all; see below for an example of someone who thinks the same.

SA

And for the life of me I can't see why you think the "standard 2 point binary" I mentioned is funny. Isn't that the layman's idea of gender and sex? Male and female and nothing in between? The word standard in there was important.

I ask because I'm curious and you have opinions on the matter.

It's funny because it's just as socially constructed as everything else and therefore there's nothing 'standard' about it. The limits of each box vary from time to time and place to place (see, who is and is not regarded as a Real Man or Real Woman), as do the positions of other such boxes (see above about white people identifying as "two-spirit".)

I feel like you're trying to force an argument between two different completely false extremes; option a), ignore all (or most) gender minorities, or option b), faithfully learn and respect every gender minority identifier used on planet earth and regard each of them as a separate static state of being. Whereas out in the real world, identity is subject to constant fluidity and the best you can ever do is try to understand what people mean at the time at which they say it. There's a great Dworkin line about moving on 'from the conservative biology of gender difference to the radical biology of gender similarity', or something like that. Words used to draw lines (including 'male' and 'female') are way less important than occupying the same consensual space, respecting each other, and taking change well when it comes.

I didn't say it wasn't a social construct, so I'm afraid I've lost the flow of the conversation here. All I have to offer is that as-is, in present day, within the frame of "the entire world," the vast majority of human beings will see the male-female binary as standard. I don't think I'm wrong about that.

And please do not strawman me, which you are doing! Nowhere did I say that every gender identity has have its own special category and that everyone must know every term. The question I raised was where agender people fit into this three-part organization system of OP's. If OP must categorize, which they actively did on their own, then their system can have its flaws, one of which I was pointing out! And nobody so far has given me an answer to that question; I would consider "agender people do not exist for realsies" as a rationale for that system, but have not even been given that.

There is NO such thing as agender. You have a damn sex. If you were to have a blood test done, it would either say FEMALE or MALE. You can pretend you're a magical unicorn species that has a ken doll's lower half for genitals all you want, but at the end of the day your DNA proves otherwise.

Please hold the vitriol! There's no need to be angry about this.

"There is NO such thing as agender. You have a damn sex."

Are you saying gender and sex are the same thing, then? Just to be clear.

What do you think about people with Androgen insensitivity syndrome? They're born with a female body and grow up believing themselves to be perfectly regular women. Then one day, alarmed by the fact they've never had a period despite being in their late teens, they go to a doctor, have tests done and find out that their DNA is that of a male. Would you go up to them and say "you may want to be a woman, but you're REALLY a MAN, your DNA proves it!"?

The question I raised was where agender people fit into this three-part organization system of OP's.

No one can answer that question except OP, can they? I sure can't. At this point I suspect you're taking OP too seriously.

I wasn't strawmanning you - I didn't think you were arguing for endless categorisation, only that you were asking me to choose between those two extremes for some abstract reason. OP's proposal never made sense in the first place because it was about cissexuality, not gender.

http://fandomsecrets.dreamwidth.org/837895.html?thread=669255943#cmt669255943

They did, right above you! This explains quite a bit and I think I understand their system now.

Only two sexes exist, male and female.

People are whatever they are physically, according to their DNA.

Intersex people are both sexes, as shown in their DNA and not in their outward appearance.

Anybody who is trans is physically one thing but "is making an effort" or "wants" to be the other, if I am guessing correctly, as their DNA will not change and they will be physically female or male forever regardless of how they physically appear, as it is DNA that matters.

Ironically this doesn't sound all too different from what most people already go by, even though OP made it sound like it was progressive by adding trans and intersex in there. I find myself a little disappointed it wasn't more interesting.

Two base* sexes. I forgot a word!

wtffffffffffff. So can you be agender if you have Turner syndrome, maybe?

I suppose? They state in a thread further down that everyone is either male or female and that is a fact, so...

It's basic sex-binarism-by-DNA pretending to be inclusive by shoehorning intersex (genetic anomalies who cannot be male or female and must necessarily be both) and trans people (who swap between the two binary points only) into peripheral roles around the basic male/female system and denying the legitimacy of genderqueer and agender identities, which they have a obvious disdain for. Yay! Puzzle solved.

Trans people have a mental disorder, that doesn't change their gender though

OK, no. The person you link to screaming about DNA is not me, the person you first replied to.

But if you want it plain, fine. I do believe that there's male, there's female, there's transmale and transfemale and somewhere exists intersex in a place that maybe I don't fully understand. Everything else is bullshit snowflaky "make me feel all special for not being exactly like everybody else." It's the demisexuality of gender and sex.

Clear enough?

Ohgod, Demisexuality. I kind of forgot that bullcrap existed, lol

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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