fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #269 ]

[ SECRET POST #269 ]

⌈ Secret Post #269 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

1. The F!S Friending Meme! Go do it! I am totally open to friending. (:
2. Have some emopuppy in a fish tank!
3. BECAUSE I CAN: TAKE THIS POLL ~~BUTTMUNCHERS FTW~~

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 168 secrets from Secret Submission Post #039.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken link, 0 not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

She DOES see him as a little brother, because she sees him as someone who needs her to watch out for him (one of her primary reasons for coming to America, for one). She ISN'T being sarcastic, she isn't being off-hand, that's how she genuinely sees it.

Honestly? I genuinely don't believe it is subject to interpretation at all. The way they act towards each other in 3-5? The way Miles says that if she doesn't pull herself together and find the right path, he'll go ahead without her in 2-4? The way she reacts to him after his earthquake episode in 3-5? No, I honestly do not believe it IS subject to interpretation; it's crystal-clear to me that it was written in a very specific way.

"Stating that their sibling relationship is canon is just as silly as saying that Edgeworth's "unnecessary feelings" makes Phoenix/Edgeworth canon."

Like hell it is. That line CLEARLY has its own meaning, and anyone taking that to mean something else is either a bit odd or joking. Meanwhile, here you have a pair of characters who ACT like they're siblings, who treat each other like siblings both in their presence and out, and who CALL each other siblings.

There really isn't much wiggle room here.

Just because she wants to protect him does not mean that is a familial obligation. All it means that she feels strongly about him. And they bicker, so what? Friends bicker. Enemies bicker. ROMANTIC COUPLES bicker.

Try stepping back and separating the short snippets of text we actually get in the game from the massive amount of extrapolation you've done. Try pretending you don't already have that bias.

For example, have you ever considered that "little brother" might be a term of frustration and condescension? Never mind that she never actually calls him that to his face. Do you really think that von Karma would have raised them side by side, as though they were both his children? Considering how much time von Karma spent in the states and the fact that Franziska was born and raised in Germany, where do you suppose Miles was? He was adopted by her father, so maybe she's supposed to see him as a brother, but that doesn't mean she actually does, and if Manfred's attitude made the line between them clear, she would have noticed it even from a young age.

Consider that she never refers to Manfred as anything but Papa. Not Father, not Vater, but Papa. Does that automatically mean she loves and respects him, or is she being ironic? She seems pretty indifferent when the subject comes up. Would you argue that there is canon on this subject? And if not, how is that much different?

There's plenty of wiggle room. You just refuse to see it.

No, that's not necessarily a familial obligation. But that IS why she thinks of him as a "little brother," rather than going by age.

You're looking for loopholes. Yes, she calls him Papa. Does that mean she automatically loves and respects him? No, it means he's her father. It isn't a term of frustration or condescension, it isn't glib and offhand, it means he's her damn father. Similarly, she calls Edgeworth her brother because.... GASP.... he's her damn brother.

There are times when other interpretations are wrong. This is one of those times.

Forgive me for being snappy. I'm sick, piled with reading and papers, and exhausted to the point of tears. So if I've been more blunt than required, it isn't any personal slight, so please don't take offense.

Except wait, where does Franziska state she was born and raised in Germany? She was doing prosecutorial work there, but I don't recall canon explicitly stating she was born and raised there.

It's at the very beginning of JFA, before you actually meet Franziska. Phoenix is like, "I didn't know von Karma had a successor!" and I think it's Gumshoe who says that it's because she was born and raised in Germany. So, not by Franziska, but it is explicitly stated.

Besides that, in the third game, she keeps saying things like, "I hear you Americans have a phrase like" or, "Is this the way you Americans do it?"

So then apparently Miles was raised in Germany as well.

But wait, are you sure Gumshoe says she was born and raised there? Doesn't he just say she's been practicing law there?

Not necessarily. Manfred von Karma only went on vacation for a few months before returning to his prosecuting duties. It doesn't say how much time he spent in either country. We do know that he's won the King of Prosecutors trophy multiple times, which means that he's been in America quite a lot.

"The kid was born and raised in Germany, pal."

Okay, so she was raised in Germany.

Ergo, Miles spent a significant time being raised in Germany as well. They -were- raised together. Unless they magically developed their incredibly powerful relationship while being apart.

...wow. Are we talking about the same "incredibly powerful relationship" that involved them not seeing each other for six years? The same "incredibly powerful relationship" that only brought her out to America after he started losing trials? Never mind that von Karmas are highly driven by arrogance and pride and she comes swearing revenge.

I know I'm barking up the wrong tree here, and I'm getting tired of arguing against a relationship that I support, but do you get what I'm attempting to say? You're picking yet another subjective topic and working backwards.

I'm going to do this one more time, and that's it. This is the last time, and then I give up on all of you forever.

Actually, I am.

She came to America because he was losing trials--because she believed he had fallen from the path and shamed himself. She came to America to GET HIM BACK ON TRACK and set him straight. THAT was her primary motivation. He didn't need her help before, he was doing what he should be--so she hadn't needed to come across the Atlantic before then.

That in itself is pretty "big sister" to me, but I will say that yes, that's just an interpretation.

I'm talking about the incredibly powerful relationship where he is the only person that she trusts to see her vulnerable side. Edgeworth tells her that if she doesn't pull herself together, he'll go on without her and this is where they part ways for good--and THAT is what causes her to break down in tears. The relationship that we see when she helps him to get over his earthquake phobia (in her own Von Karma way). When there's an earthquake, and the first thing on her mind (as with Phoenix) is "Miles Edgeworth." (Hell, just the fact that she knows of his earthquake phobia, as he isn't exactly forthcoming with it)

Yes, this is the relationship I'm talking about. And yes, as you say, they hadn't seen each other for six years--yet their relationship was STILL that strong. So from that we can sort of infer that they either grew incredibly close incredibly quickly, or spent quite a bit of time together growing up.

Canon = Canon.

Are you also cftf or are you a different anon who is completely obsessed with grinding this meaningless point into the ground?

Either way, I'm done. There's no point in continuing this conversation.

Er. Forgive me for answering your question?

I think the point you're missing is that you said INFER.

Inferring doesn't make it canon.

Yes, I did say infer, but I said it in regards to the DETAILS of their childhood/growing up... which as I've said many times, is certainly open to interpretation. That's how I interpret it, and you're correct that THAT certainly isn't canon (i.e. how long they spent together, where they were raised, etc).

Haha, backpaddling!

Hardly. Here's what I said:

"So from that we can sort of infer that they either grew incredibly close incredibly quickly, or spent quite a bit of time together growing up."

Again, talking about the DETAILS of their childhood... which are completely open to interpretation and personal choice (as I've said a few times in this discussion)... is something that we have to infer from the text. That's what I was saying there.

The details of their childhood must be inferred, however, they are ultimately irrelevant to the canon and explicit relationship we see in the text. Franziska says that he's her brother--we don't have to infer that. Anything else about HOW they grew up? That's interpretation.

Were you not claiming earlier that they had to have spent x amount of years together? And that they clearly had to have been raised together in spite of what everyone else said?

My dear, that's a backpedal.

I'll say before I continue that I don't care for most pairings, in fact, I feel like most things that take a relationship further than you see in canon, that is to say, ON SCREEN, or is detailed on screen by another character, takes a step away from being a canon relationship. Some much larger than others.

That is not to say it is not in-character! If written well, if an interpretation is made in such a way that it is believable, it can still be entertaining. However, people view things differently. You may interpret the evidence as saying that they were raised together as siblings, and that may be true, but even then that doesn't guarantee they have a sibling bond. Good friends can often have closer relationships than siblings as well, and people who share circumstances even further.

The scene at the end of the second game could be interpreted as Franziska showing that she cares for Miles in a familial way, and that's not a bad interpretation. It could also be viewed that as she is entirely dependent on his view of her, as her father, her previous source of pride, is no longer around, that she has latched on to him, and since he is leaving her behind, is simple depression/loneliness or something else among those lines.

However, neither interpretation is strictly canon until the character canonly comments on it truthfully, whether to themselves or to another, on-screen. Both of them could said to be IN-CHARACTER. Just because something is in-character doesn't mean it is something that could happen in canon, however the reverse, anything a character does in canon is in-character, because canon determines what is in-character.

Man, I don't even know what my original point was now, but I felt the need to get this off my chest. Needless to say, only things concretely provided in canon are canon, which can be interpreted differently by different people, and all ways could be correct as long as they stick to all events in canon being true. Unless the creators say one way or the other, of course.

You're completely right, and I agree with everything you said there.

However, Franziska DOES call him her brother. Twice, in completely unrelated situations. It's right there in the text. This isn't reading between the lines; reading between the lines would be trying to assign it a different meaning than what it blatantly and explicitly says--that she thinks of him as a brother.

If it weren't for that, then yes, it would be just an interpretation. As it is, though, it's an interpretation that's completely supported by an explicit reference in the text.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #269 ]

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