[ SECRET POST #270 ]

[shahni.livejournal.com]

⌈ Secret Post #270 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

-The F!S Friending Meme! Go do it moar!
- NAME THAT FANDOM, FIRST COMMENT. Modly-lady is in school :3

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 130 secrets from Secret Submission Post #039.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken link, 0 not!fandom, [1] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Wednesday, October 3rd, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 22

[haro.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. It wasn't the child Snape was concerned about, but Lily. If it had been Neville he may very well still be a Death Eater. I think it's great that he loved Lily and all, but his love couldn't extend to care about anything but her- the things that are important to her not being worth it. And in a sense, he refused to change until he lost her. Despite the fact that their friendship ended because he couldn't do that years before.

Re: 22

[anogete.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're saying. Snape didn't care about Harry. But you still don't understand his character. I'm not denying that he was damaged; he was severely damaged and wrong in most of his choices in life, especially when he joined the DE. However, you are assuming that he is capable of a healthy relationship at that age - that he was simply being selfish. He *was* being selfish, but there was a reason for that. His home life, childhood, and teenage years created a person who had nothing. He thought he owned Lily because she offered him friendship and affection. These were two things he probably never received as a child. And any child psychologist will tell you how terribly important it is for a baby to be shown affection. He was clinging on to the only person who was offering that to him. Given his past, I can easily see why he would have felt he had to do that. I'm not saying his relationship with Lily was romantic and sweet and healthy. It wasn't. It was tragic. But not because he was an asshole. He was just a poor kid who was misled by everyone in his life. He didn't know up from down or right from wrong. He was just thinking of himself in order to survive. Is that right? Is that brave? Of course not. But it isn't shameful. It's sad and horribly tragic.

Re: 22

[haro.livejournal.com]

See above comment and... Snape's bad choices let him to where he was. He chose being a Death Eater over genuine affection from Lily, but the mistake was made years before when he chose Slytherin over Lily. This is not to say that Slytherins are inherently bad, but he chose Slytherin pride over the one friend he had. Lily was sorted before Snape. The thing is he DIDN'T cling to her. He expected her to accept everything he did, but if he'd actually clung to her, followed her around like a puppy- he would have made more good choices. Maybe not the healthiest course of action, but healthier than what he ended up doing.

?He didn't know up from down or right from wrong. He was just thinking of himself in order to survive.

Survive? Like his survival was threatened by choosing Lily over hanging out with future death eaters? Slytherin over Lily? Mistreating Harry over at least being tolerable?

I don't see how Snape is not an asshole. I do think I understand his character. I'm not saying he's not sympathetic, but he's certainly an extremely spiteful and jealous, even cruel man. And he did care nothing about the death of a child, as the OP said.

Re: 22

[anogete.livejournal.com]

1 - Snape genuinely though that becoming a DE would impress Lily. This is easily backed up by canon and bits found in DH. He thought becoming someone important (as the DEs had promised him he would be) would make her think better of him. Unfortunately, he was wrong. So, I don't think he thought of the choice as DE vs. Lily. He thought once he was a DE, then he would be important, and therefore become more important to her. JKR said this in several post-DH interviews.

2 - I disagree with the clinging comment. I think he did cling to Lily. He wanted her to like everything he did, not necessarily because he liked it, but because it made him look more powerful and important in her eyes. He built his world around her. (Not really a good thing to do.)

Which leads to the third point...

3 - When she picked James over him, he flipped out. Like so many, he wanted revenge, especially when she chose the one guy that made his life so much harder at school. It was a sort of betrayal to him. I'm no saying Lily was wrong in picking James. I'm just saying that it hurt him deeply. He was working so hard to earn her approval (in all the wrong ways, mind you) that her rejection of that lifestyle cut him to the bone.

4 - Of course he was trying to survive. The Wizarding World was in turmoil at the time. Voldemort was on the rise. He had fallen in with a bad crowd. And just like a gang, it's hard to get out once you're in. I imagine the DE would be the same way. Once you've taken the mark, you're stuck. The mark was a mistake of huge proportions, but it was a mistake nonetheless.

5 - As for Harry, I maintain that part of his overt hatred of Harry was for show. However, I'm sure he retained a deep dislike of Harry because he was James' song. Snape was a petty person. And I think a great deal of that pettiness stemmed from his childhood.

6 - And about caring for the death of a child... Of course he didn't. He's in a bind. The one person who has shown him true kindness is in jeopardy. He doesn't think he can save everyone, but he might be able to save her. Is it noble or brave? Hell no. Is it realistic for a man with the emotional IQ of a ten year old to grasp at that straw? Of course. I'm not saying he loved Lily unconditionally. I'm not saying it was romantic or beautiful. I'm just saying that I don't think he was quite the asshole that you're making him out to be when one looks back and takes his entire life into account.

Re: 22

[merienem.livejournal.com]

Okay, sorry to just jump in here, but some of these don't make a lot of sense. Regarding point number 1, I recall Lily making it pretty clear to him that it was a 'them or me' situation. And I totally agree with her. And even if she didn't make it completely, 100% explicitly clear to him? I'd still think very little of him for being so selfish. I'm sorry, but - for instance - if I were a Black woman in the 1920s in America, and my best friend were a white guy who was trying to join the KKK to "impress" me? I'd think he was a huge, massive asshole, too, regardless of his bad childhood or whatever.

And as for point number three, I'm pretty sure she didn't "pick" James over Snape until after he'd cut her down with the "mudblood" in Snape's Worst Memory. Maybe it's just my reading of the scene, but wasn't that why it was his worst memory? Because that was the moment when he really lost Lily? He lashed out at her and their relationship was completely changed because of it - his choices and actions forced her away, and if he reacted badly to that, it's nobody's fault but his own. So while I'm certain that he did go a bit mad afterwards, I don't think it was because of any "clinging" - he was the one who initiated the "breakup" between the two friends, as it were. She wanted to help him, but perhaps due to machismo or shame or hatred of James, it was ultimately his choice (and Lily's understandable reaction) that broke their relationship down.

Snape is an interesting character, but I think it really cheapens the arc of his redemption to skim over the bad things he did or exuse them due to bad upbringing, or act as though the bad things he did in and of themselves are sympathetic acts. He started out with a bad home situation, but made things worse for himself when he made bad choices. He was not a good person. But he changed and that's why, in the end, he was ultimately sympathetic, I think.

Re: 22

[agnes-perdita.livejournal.com]

4. That's a legitimate bit of personal canon and I can see some of its plausibility but given how little we know about that time, it could just as well be likely that Snape was revelling in the attention he was getting from the DE and Voldemort. He did after all spy on Dumbledore and Trewlawney during the prophecy and went away to tell his master about it, knowing that the logical conclusion would be death for if not the entire family, then certainly the chosen baby. That doesn't really speak to me of a man who's realised it was a mistake and is trying to downplay his helpfulness in the systematic persecution and segregation of muggles.

And well, we probably just have different outlooks but I don't think the crappiness of his childhood particularly absolves him of his actions - our upbringing and growth extends well into our the last stages of our lives, so at that time, teenage/young adult Snape can't hide behind an unhappy household because he's had other experiences in life. I get that people feel sympathy for him but having a reason for being a arsehole doesn't make someone any less of an arsehole in my opinion. Until they acknowledge it and genuinely try to change, that is. Which Snape never did until it was too late to save the girl he loved.