[ SECRET POST #2469 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2469 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 055 secrets from Secret Submission Post #353.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[erinptah]

Carlos is a POC. That's not ambiguous. The creators have expressed bafflement that anyone interprets him as *not* a POC.

Cecil, meanwhile, gets almost no physical description (and that's a deliberate move on the creators' part), so he can be interpreted any way at all. There's likely some subconscious societal racism going on when the majority of listeners default to thinking of him as white -- but of course Tumblr has a way of taking that observation and going way overboard, because Tumblr.

[(Anonymous)]

A I said: I think it's more a mix of lazyness and "Oh hey, I like that interpretation" after they saw a single, early fanart that got popular- because it's not just the skin colour a lot of the Cecils share, it's the complete design that's very similar. So it's not so much a case of "all interpret him as white because default" in my eyes.

[starphotographs]

These people always fail to mention that the way Carlos is depicted is pretty homogeneous, too. I mean, I guess you could argue that it makes some sense because we have slightly more to go on than we do with Cecil, but... Uh, not that much more, all things considered.

It's just one of those screwy memetic things, I think. People tend to find something and just stick with it for no real reason.

[erinptah]

With Carlos we have a skin tone, a hair color, Hispanic features (a wide category, but not an all-encompassing one), the general idea of handsomeness, and a basic wardrobe (lab coats, flannel shirts, jeans). That's a lot to go on compared to nothing-at-all. Especially when you add in all the nonhuman features people sometimes give Cecil (extra eyes! tentacles! a tail!), which we can reasonably assume Carlos doesn't have.

[starphotographs]

Yeah, it's certainly a lot more than nothing, but I feel like most of the descriptors for him are still pretty broad and open for interpretation. It's a smaller playing field than you have with Cecil, for sure, but it's still pretty damn big.

[hallokatzchen]

We have a description of Carlos, and there's so many ways you can work that description. It would be awesome to see more variety in his height and build along with different types of hair (straight, curly, different styles) or even some mods or scars.

[dreemyweird]

Thank you! I didn't know that. [though technically the creators' opinion is not a part of the canon and, as far as I understand, Carlos was described as simply "dark", I do think it would be more natural to interpret him as a PoC given this information]

[chardmonster]

I think a decent share of it is that the blond hair/third eye/purple look is just cool. I'm not sure many people would have been so fucking dedicated to white cecil if that hadn't come about.

Source?

[insanenoodlyguy]

I've seen a few people say this, but none with citations. I'td be good to have some word of god on this but I'd like to actually see it.

Re: Source?

[(Anonymous)]

Different anon.

Shit, I read it in an interview somewhere. I will see if I can dig it up.

Re: Source?

[erinptah]

Joseph Fink on Twitter: "first time I've seen carlos depicted as anything but white. which is refreshing. I mean, it's right in the name"

(Which ignores the fact that there can be white people named Carlos, but confirms that Night Vale's Carlos is not supposed to be one of them.)

As a bonus, on Cecil: "Getting a lot of emails cuz I guess it says somewhere on tumblr that I said Cecil is white. Don't know where that came from. Never said it."

So they're similarly insistent on keeping Cecil canonically non-racially-identified, no matter what headcanons people come up with.

Re: Source?

[rosehiptea]

I've literally never seen a fanart where Carlos did look white. Maybe because of when I got into the fandom.

(I have to admit that the idea that Carlos is Latino is very firmly entrenched in my brain. Not I guess that his skin is any particular shade of "dark" but that he is definitely Latino. Whereas I have no headcanon about Cecil's race or looks whatsoever except that I don't actually think he has tentacles or a third eye. I don't mind art where he does anyway though.)

Also hi. I don't know if you remember me but hi.

Re: Source?

[erinptah]

Hey there! Nice to see you around =)

I've seen a few white Carloses. Plus a bunch where I can believe the artist was making a good-faith effort, but the poor guy still looks awfully pale. I wouldn't be surprised if it's happening less now -- there's enough good fanart of canon-appearing Carlos to drive the point home.

(I mean, you would think the canon description by itself would be enough, but people can be really good at missing those. Look at all the shock that happened when a black girl was cast as Rue in the Hunger Games, even though that's explicitly in the book...)

For Cecil, I have some pretty strong headcanons -- like the idea that he has medium-brown skin. Thinking about it, though, there's nothing I haven't been willing to set aside for the sake of a given story/drawing. The theory that he appears different to everyone who looks at him ("all the headcanons are correct!") seems totally plausible too.

[(Anonymous)]

I wonder what the demographics of the fandom is, though. When no descriptions are given, I think the majority will envision a character to be, to some degree, similar to themselves. There definitely have been studies that show that even PoC default to whiteness in a lot of situations, but then that's such a huge, deeper problem in society that getting pissed at fandom and calling them racist for defaulting to white is fucking stupid and missing the point entirely.

[erinptah]

I agree that there are also valid non-racism-related factors contributing to the way Cecil gets headcanoned, and that people on Tumblr are not always great at reasonable, logic-based discussion (on race or on anything else).

[(Anonymous)]

Or... and this is me just being crazy, most of tumblr is white and want to see themselves in the character. It's literally no different that any PoC that interprets him as their race.

I think seeing him as your own race is far less insulting that trying to cherry pick a race you think is least used and then bitching at anyone's differing interpretation.

I'd be more insulted that they're all young and stupid attractive because god knows we can't ship uggos.

[erinptah]

most of tumblr is white and want to see themselves in the character

Which us white people absolutely couldn't do with a non-white character!

And yeah, it's different, because (at least in the US, where the series is based) we have a million options in our media for white characters, so opportunities to "see ourselves" race-wise are not that hard to find. Not the case with any other race.

I agree that it's stupid to yell at anyone just because they don't share your mental image of a never-described character. Now if only people would quit saying things with iffy racial implications in defense of white!Cecils, that would be great.


(Full disclosure, my Cecil-appearance headcanon involves him not being white, but it's also not Tumblr-social-justice-approved. So it's not like I'm in either of those camps, here.)

[(Anonymous)]

This is specifically about Cecil since I agree Carlos is not white but I typically only see Cecil arguments.

Seeing yourself in other media doesn't mean you don't want to see yourself in your favorite media. It resets with every piece of entertainment. Black people don't call it a win because BET and Tyler Perry exist. Women don't watch Lifetime and decide "You know what, that's a whole channel for women. I don't need a woman in Avengers anymore." Asians outside of Asian countries don't say those countries have them covered and don't want Asians in Western Media. It resets every for every piece of media and expectations change based on the setting and stories of the next piece.



Maybe I'm just too close to this concept. Tiny Fandom. I have a canon ship that are 2 white people and I've had people bitch at me about not shipping two POC characters because "Their stories are so similar. You're obviously racist and against interracial couples." Their "similar story" being one of them dies. Their personalities are completely different. Their physical traits are completely different. How they interact is completely different. Fuck you guys an interracial ship is the most popular ship in the fandom. I just happen to shit out fanart of my ship at an alarming rate so I think people think my ship is disproportionately represented when it reality, other than my art, only 2-3 other pieces exist for them and there's no fanfic.

I mean at this point I believe that people are mad at me for not drawing their ships so they try to shame me into it and that's fucking bullshit. My art is supposed to be fun for /me/, not you. You want me to draw your ships I take paypal. If you're tired of seeing my art blacklist my tags.

So I can't help but believe at least some people are mad that good/prolific artists draw White Cecil and not "their Cecil." So they attempt to shame them into it. That ain't right, and that's how we get the disingenuous people who make characters other races with little research, effort, or soul hoping for buttpats from tumblr.