[ SECRET POST #285 ]

[shahni.livejournal.com]

⌈ Secret Post #285 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

- Because it broke my brain, a Death Note - Sailor Moon Second OP parody. @_@

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 82 secrets from Secret Submission Post #041.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!fandom,[1] subjective statement, [1] not!secret, [1] [2] personal attacks [ wtf they're for the same RP, go to their COMPLAINTS thread or something! Or at least don't SHOW who it is =-=;], 0 repeat
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Thursday, October 18th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[aishiteru.livejournal.com]

not!secret:

dude, I am getting so tired of that argument. "you wouldn't fuck your own sibling, would you?"

ESPECIALLY IN CONNECTION WITH SUPERNATURAL. adfkljhaldighalkjwhdlkgjhal LEAVETHATSHOWALONEDAMNIT.

INCEST IS NOT AS WEIRD AS YOU THINK. It is VERY WESTERN to believe that it's wrong, but that is SUBJECTIVE, and what we would see as BLATANT INCEST would be seen as PERFECTLY ELIGIBLE COUPLES FOR MARRYING in another culture. STOP THAT.


.. that said, my answer to that question would still be "no." but christ, just because you think incest is "gross" or "wrong" does not mean everyone else does or even should, kthx.

[(Anonymous)]

Even if it is a Western thing, aren't those characters indeed from a Western culture? Heeeello.

Also, when nature makes it rather clear that incest just doesn't work out for the best, you'd think most people would realize that you kinda should see it as wrong.

That said, I'm not the secret-maker and I do indeed ship a couple of incest pairings. It's just, to defend it to the degree you just did... NO.

[aishiteru.livejournal.com]

That doesn't mean fic writers have to see it from a western perspective. (even though they most often do. I'm just saying a broad condemnation of incest "because it's wrong" doesn't always work.)

and actually, that's not true. the first generation after the parents is more likely to have possibly damaging recessive genes pop up, yes - but in subsequent generations it is actually more viable in terms of natural selection than reproducing outside your family, since you minimize the risk of mutated genes. the "in-breeding leads to retarded children" argument actually holds little water.

I defend it because I have learned about it. (Cultural anthropology is a wonderful subject.) Learned enough to actually understand that it's not so "wrong," and it's all about cultural perspective.

if it squicks you, by all means, I'm not asking you to personally love incest. I'd never engage in it and I wouldn't expect everyone else to go "yay incest!" just because of what I've said. but at least open your minds a little, sheesh.

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that incest does seem to be one of those universal taboos to an extent, although to varying degrees, definitely. It's true that the inbreeding leading to bad genes argument isn't really strong enough to explain such a complex social phenomenon(the least of which because we do tons of things that are unhealthy for us all the time but aren't taboo in the least); considering we are creatures which survive through culture, we consider that it creates sexual tension within a family structure, and the family structure is so very vital to the survival of any community/nation/country, for obvious reasons.

If there is sexual competition within a family, well. Things are bound to get messy. And when a family structure breaks down, the potential effects are a lot more devastating than a relationship going sour.

If there is a case which differs from our norm (different from other cultures norms, definitely), and the persons involved manage to function within a healthy environment, I really can't see any logical reason for shunning them or punishing them. When we single out incest as an "obvious wrong" we are, I think, not using our sense, or logic, or science, but our ingrained cultural knowledge about family dynamics.

It should probably go without saying that fic writers are allowed to explore any taboo, since fiction is a free ground of expression, but yeah. You'd have people who disagree with that, at which point I always wonder why writers are allowed to do it but not fic writers. I have nothing to add to this discussion except some personal thoughts and tl;dr about incest lol woops. It was an interesting discussion, I hope you don't mind me jumping in. For the record, I admire your anthropological assertions and agree with you.

[aishiteru.livejournal.com]

ooh, I like you. you have some really well thought out points. ♥ I always appreciate that.

I don't like the word "universal" when it comes to taboos. anthropology classes have taught me that a lot more is relative than you think, though there are a few vague baselines. murder is one. incest is a little murkier, though not by all that much. it really depends on how you define incest - we'd see it as slightly incestuous to marry your first cousin, but that's a standard practice in many cultures. in turn, they'd see our practice of marrying total strangers as odd and perhaps a little dangerous, though we have little conception of "clan unity."

but it's all about the frame of reference you're coming from. In a western frame, incest is problematic all over the place. it's against the law, it will get you socially ostracized, it's probably against your religion, a whole host of things. it has happened, in western culture - even to the point of siblings getting married under fake names and living out happy lives. but it runs a serious and, like you said, potentially devastating risk.

but yeah, you have it exactly, which is nice to see. :] "ingrained cultural knowledge" is exactly it. you can't even talk about an innate sense of right and wrong - there is no such thing, not that hasn't been already tainted by cultural viewpoints. "that's just wrong!" is an argument that will never, ever work.

.. you know, that's a good point. maybe because fic writers are using creations that are not their own and deviating from the "original" vision of canon? so much for interpretation. =/ even though it is largely self-gratifying, especially in this case.

but love for well thought out discussion. and I don't mind at all! ♥

(also, you have Calvin in your icon, and that's just adorably awesome.)

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

I like you, too. ♥ Although I try never to blame anyone for their gut reactions on a topic, it's nice to see people thinking about them and dissecting them rather than just blindly accepting them. If we can't question our ways of thinking, we can't really grow.

You're right, there's always funky conditions attached to what is called "universal" - like with murder, throughout the ages we've sanctioned all kinds of murder, and we still do today (murder during wartimes, murder by the state) but there also exists this durable conception of a wrong being committed. With my conception of incest across cultures, I believe that in nearly all places some type of incest is taboo? There's just, like you nicely point out, a lot more leeway around the world with what we would consider unthinkable. If I'm wrong at any point, feel free to correct me, since I'm not a student of Anthro but of Soc. Incidentally if there's a culture that exists out there where all types of incest are permitted I'd find that incredibly interesting. *_*

Taboos that reach far and wide, even in the most liberal definition of the thing, are fascinating to me, precisely because our cultural conceptions worldwide and throughout history are usually so extremely malleable. I agree, the frame is definitely crucial; especially because we ostracize incestuous partners, it reinforces a "check" on people who go against the grain of our socially evolved knowledge. Unfortunately, it means that some individuals whom are able to cope without hurting anyone around them or themselves will also have to deal with a lot of stigmatization that might likely destroy their relationship anyway.

This is why I love Anthro students, srsly. ♥ It's just ... great to see a reasonable amount of openmindedness and consideration for a cultural perspective. So thank you for being awesome.

Yeah, I suspect it's something like that. "You're ruining canon!" But canon will always be there and discouraging interpretation will make fandom a little bit more boring, I think. Especially since even a fic that obeys canon could be godawful. It's all about execution.

(Hee, he's such a cute little terror. Fictional childhood hero forev.)

[green-and-warty.livejournal.com]

Kris, let's have a family.

♥

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

I THOUGHT THAT WAS OUR PLAN JULIE. Can we have kittens in place of children?

♥ *_-

[green-and-warty.livejournal.com]

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME. I MEAN, KITTENS ARE INCESTUOUS ANYWAY!!

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

KITTENS! DON'T THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT NATURE?!

[green-and-warty.livejournal.com]

CLEARLY THEY HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED BY FANDOM. WHAT'S NEXT, INTERSPECIES?

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

ahwhahwhshshahahahaha. ilu man.

ANIMALS SURE LOVE THEIR DUBCON TOO. Oh god we've ruined the animals.

[green-and-warty.livejournal.com]

♥

THE DUCKS WERE ALL ABOUT IT UNTIL MONKEYS GOT INTO DUCKJOBS. ... psh, the animals ruined themselves.

[allira-dream.livejournal.com]

Because Fictional Incest is dangerous to the Fictional Kids the Fictional Males - going with the secret - will Obviously Have REAL Consequences.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, did you even read any of the two previous posts? The original poster was talking about it in a very RL manner, and that was how I replied as well.

I hardly need some little smartass telling me that two guys can't have children, so just piss off already.

[(Anonymous)]

The 'gene pool impact' point is a little bit of a dead end in the cases where they're both the same sex, isn't it?

Or do the similar genes rub off onto characters' adopted sidekicks further down the road?

[enjolras.livejournal.com]

People write wincest coz they see two hot guys - not because they wanna do their sibling

LOL. Yes. I'm glad someone said it point-blankly. Even if nobody else will admit it. The "oh noes, we're brothers!" thing is just a cover up for *~plot~*.

[aishiteru.livejournal.com]

People write wincest coz they see two hot guys - not because they wanna do their sibling, otherwise they'd be writing smut about that.

ahahaha. very, very true. thinking through all the implications doesn't happen too often, I think.

I mean, yeah - I personally see incest as wrong, but it's not a value I apply to the people around me (at least actively - I can't deny I'd still be squicked if a friend of mine and their sibling got it on =/). but agreed - wincest hurts no one, and all the complaints against it bother me a little. to each his own, yeah? don't read it if you don't like it. :/

it's just that the "incest is wrong" argument has always annoyed me, and it's popped up a NUMBER of times, usually in connection with supernatural. no matter what you or I may personally feel, it's all relative. and, shock and horror - THE SUPERNATURAL FANDOM IS NOT ALL ABOUT WINCEST. -sigh- jeez guys. from the secrets, you'd think it was the only thing fandom ever wrote about.

and plus - rule 34. trufax.