fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2486 ]

[ SECRET POST #2486 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2486 ⌋

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I'm an avid fantasy reader, and there seems to be some controversy in how "fantasy people" - typical premodern, most likely but not always European medieval inspired setting - are allowed to speak. Obviously they didn't speak English, at least not modern English, so where's the line between "translating to something people today can understand" and keeping that medieval/whatever atmosphere?

What do you think of characters using expression and slang from today, provided it makes sense within context? For example, I don't know, "fuck you" verses a character saying "Jesus Christ, man!". "Fuck" seems to be the most common point of controversy, some like their expletives to sound more ancient, but as a crude insult, there's not much that sounds better.

What would you think in a fantasy novel if a character said "go fuck yourself" or something? Are there any colloquial expressions that throw you out, or do you find excessive "ye people of olde" talk distracting and obnoxious?

'Fuck' actually goes back to about the 1500s, IIRC. Not quite to the Ye Olde feudalism-and-castles days, but still encompassing the tail end of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.

I don't give a shit, honestly. I don't give a shit about medievalism in fantasy, and I certainly don't give a shit about realism in fantasy. I just don't care. If you want to have your characters talking like 50s hipsters in a fantasy world, that's fine with me and I would totally read that (it would even be fine with me if you had them doing it in 1100s France - lord knows I love A Knight's Tale). But if it's fantasy, it's fantasy.

I'm not saying realism is bad - it can be really really cool and awesome. But it's not essential to fantasy - certainly there's no necessary connection between fantasy and ersatz-medievialism, and there's plenty of fantasy that is not based on medieval Europe, but the point holds no matter what - I don't think there's any case where you need to hold to some kind of realistic depiction of our world in a fantasy work. I think what matters is coherence, especially rhetorical aesthetic coherence, and I think what matters is quality. If what you're writing hangs together with what you're trying to do, if it's well written, that's far more important than realism. At the end of the day, realistic =! good, and that's especially true in fantasy.

I don't have a problem with most swear words in fantasy. People have been using 'fuck', 'shit', 'damn', whatever as swears for as long as we've been a species. (Obviously not the English words, but their languages' equivalent.)

I'd be thrown out of the story if a medieval peasant said something like "Christ on a cracker!" or some other very modern sounding phrase, but general swearing is fine. Anyone who thinks people didn't swear in exactly the same ways we swear today needs to reacquaint themselves with the Eddas and Shakespeare and shit.

I'm an avid fantasy reader, and there seems to be some controversy in how "fantasy people" - typical premodern, most likely but not always European medieval inspired setting - are allowed to speak.

My first question is why chain yourself down to the least imaginative fantasy fiction out there, when that's a minority of the whole genre?

Generally I think an author is good in avoiding anything obviously 20th century. "Fuck," in different incarnations is older than Modern English, likely older than Middle English. I might rephrase "go fuck yourself" if only because that particular phrase is a modern idiom. The OED is likely a writer's best friend in these matters.

"My first question is why chain yourself down to the least imaginative fantasy fiction out there, when that's a minority of the whole genre?"

I am honestly confused about what you mean by this sentence. Is this rhetorical, or do you know exactly which fantasy books are on my Kindle?

It's a response to how you've defined "fantasy people," which on my Kindle includes everything from the Early Stone Age to the distant future.

Okay...? lol I read any fantasy, or for that matter, genre that interests me, dude. Doesn't change the fact that most big-name (and iconic to the genre) fantasy is blatantly inspired by a notable period of about 1500 years. Don't get why you're knocking what I like or assuming I don't read anything else. Seems very random to me. And yes, I'm most drawn to European medieval inspired fantasy genres, no shame. :)

"Doesn't change the fact that most big-name (and iconic to the genre) fantasy is blatantly inspired by a notable period of about 1500 years."

Because it's not a fact. Urban fantasy has dominated the shelves since the 80s, and medieval fantasy only gets a few token representatives on the shortlists every year.

Has it really? Do you have any reliable stats for this?

Ugh, though I wouldn't say "modern romance with (unusually attractive) mythological creatures" is any better or more creative than "medieval Europe with dragons" at this point. And "girl finds out from (unusually attractive) magic man that she has special powers that will let her save the world from (mystical threat) mundanes can't see" is growing as dead-horse-whipped as "boy receives (his father's) magical sword and has to go on a long journey to kill a bad guy to save the world", frankly.

Tor.com published a nice little editorial about how she's been employed to review just one sub-genre of SF&F, and she still has too many books in her schedule. The solution to "I'm bored with that" in the current renaissance is "well, don't read that."

Late but...I'd recommend looking at how people handle historical fiction, particularly stuff set in the 1500's, since that genre actually has the same debate basically.

From what I've seen it really depends on how you're writing the story. If it's something that's not High-Fantasy, or it's comedic high fantasy, then it's a lot more lax in things like how people talk. But if it is high fantasy? Then I'd follow the same rule of thumb a lot of Historical fiction does: Use wording that's more formal instead of what might actually have been said at the time [since, prior to the early-mid 1800's, a lot of it would be hard to understand] and stay away from old-time slang for the same reason.

Oh man, I had a huge row over this with a friend of mine who writes original fantasy fiction. This fantasy society was typically medieval, late Middle Ages, plate armor, swords, longbows, and stirrups, and he was focusing on the military.

Now, he felt that he didn't want to use terms from the Middle Ages (e.g. he wanted to use "sergeant" as opposed to "serjeant", "jail" as opposed "gaol") which was fine and all, though the fact that he wanted to do this because using the period terms would be "biting" GRRM's style (I love Asoiaf as much as the next nerd, but I don't think GRRM owns the Middle English lexicon) raised an eyebrow.

But then he shortened "sergeant" to "sarge". "Reconnaissance" to "recon". "Commanding officer" to "CO". He used rank abbreviations in dialogue and ranks that never existed until the 20th century. And I just. Could not. Many of those abbreviations came about as a result of telegrams and when you're not paying by the letter to write something they just don't make any sense. If your society doesn't have electric type, why would they have invented these? It came off sounding like a group of modern day soldiers cosplaying medieval knights at a Ren Faire and struggling to stay in character. ("Hooah, ser. Hooah, I say! Verily, thine mission is FUBAR.")

So... just be careful. Try not to use any terms that you know came into being as a direct result of technology that doesn't exist in your world. Try to avoid deeply modern syntax. "Fuck" seems fine, but "o-m-g, could we be, like, literally, any more fucked right now?" is way, way out.

I agree...to an extent. Though it depends on how the communication goes - and factors that *aren't* just limited to technology [for example, in a fantasy world magic would effect things depending on how it acts.]

That said, like I said in the comment above your's, not using terms from the time is actually really common in historical fiction simply because it can get really hard to follow for people who aren't versed in it - and you don't want to force people to follow a dictionary you've included in the back just to understand what the characters are saying to each other. Granted, some would make sense but considering most fantasy is set in a 1500's-ish time period, and modern english didn't come about until the 1800's? There's a lot that wouldn't match up.

...Also, out of curiosity, how would using words that already existed be "biting" someone's style?

...Also, out of curiosity, how would using words that already existed be "biting" someone's style?

I have no idea myself! Like I said, it was one of the things that tipped me off that said friend of mine had... strange ideas about period word use, to say the least.

The Ye People of Olde talk is what puts me off of fantasy. I like the magical themes but the old time talk and O Bard's Tongue! type exclamations are too much for me.

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[ SECRET POST #2486 ]

Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

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Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?

Re: Modern colloquial/slang expressions in fantasy?