[ SECRET POST #2493 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2493 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 019 secrets from Secret Submission Post #356.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of it also has to do with the character's role within the story; in my experience people LOVE to ship rivals/enemies/characters with bad feeling towards each other in canon far more than best friends, and POCs are often relegated to 'the best friend' while the rival/archnemesis is another white guy.

[vethica]

Hmm, this is an interesting point. I've always preferred the best friend shipping myself, so I hadn't considered this reasoning, but it makes sense.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that explains the amount of SwanQueen--Regina/Emma from Once Upon a Time. Not a fan of that kind of dynamic, though... I ship characters who actually at least like each other, in canon. But in certain corners of the OUAT fandom, not liking the pairing makes you a homophobe. It doesn't matter that I ship Mulan/Aurora, or am still hoping desperately that Lancelot is not in fact dead, because I would ship him with everything that moves. I'm not usually that shallow, but damn he's good looking. Also pissed that they killed off Marian, because Robin and Marian were cute as fuck and also an interracial couple.

[jain]

in my experience people LOVE to ship rivals/enemies/characters with bad feeling towards each other in canon far more than best friends

Kirk/Spock (TOS); Kirk/McCoy (AOS); Arthur/Merlin and Gwaine/Merlin (Merlin); John/Rodney (SGA); John/Sherlock (Sherlock); Dean/Castiel (SPN); most bandom, popslash, hockey, etc. OTPs...

It's not just that there are plenty of counterexamples for your argument; it's that these counterexamples include some of the hugest, most passionately shipped pairings out there.

Well, they are friends, but...

[(Anonymous)]

I would argue that most of those relationships have or have had an antagonistic edge to them (maybe not Gwaine/Merlin).

Re: Well, they are friends, but...

[jain]

1) That's not the case for the majority of popslash, bandom, and hockey OTPs. (Or at least not for how most writers write the pairings; the actual people could secretly hate each other for all we know.)

2) Re: the other relationships and their "antagonistic edge," I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. Almost all friendships include a certain level of conflict; are you actually arguing that because, e.g., John and Sherlock fight constantly, there's no real difference between John's and Sherlock's friendship and Sherlock's and Moriarty's rivalry?

2A) In any case, the "antagonistic edge" these friendships have isn't unique to white guy-white guy friendships; you can see the same types of dynamics in Tony&Rhodey, Shawn&Gus, Wes&Gunn (in the earlier seasons), Wes&Travis, etc. Yet somehow those comparable white guy/PoC guy pairings are tiny, either because there's a vastly more popular white guy/white guy pairing in the same fandom, or because the fandom itself never really takes off despite its basically being fannish catnip.

Re: Well, they are friends, but...

[(Anonymous)]

If there ever was a pairing that should have been fannish catnip it was Wes & Travis. I just never got why the fandom never really went anywhere. I don't believe it was because they only had one season. Look at all the huge slash ships that exploded during their first seasons.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's a question of what dynamics actually exist in the show. I mean, I've never watched Merlin and I'm not in bandom, popslash, hockey or anything like that... and I stopped watching SGA and SPN halfway through... but Kirk doesn't really have a recurring rival in TOS, and Sherlock--well, it's Holmes/Watson, you can't break them up.

I was thinking of Hannigram, Light/L, Kaiba/Jounouchi, Muraki/Tsuzuki, Suoh/Munakata... yeah, a lot of anime come to think of it. Dexter/Ice Truck Killer was popular back in ye olde days. Bashir/Garak is much more popular than Bashir/O'Brian in DS9, and though it was admittedly some years ago, last I looked on the DW kink meme Doctor/Master was more popular than Doctor/Jack or any of the other companions.

It was just what popped into my mind when I saw Scrubs being mentioned, because at first I was surprised at the lack of Turk/JD, but then, he has that antagonistic relationship with Cox and sometimes that's more attractive to shippers especially if the 'rival' is featured a lot--so I think there are a lot of factors involved.

[jain]

I think it's a question of what dynamics actually exist in the show.

I think it's more complicated than that, because there's also the question of what fandoms people gravitate towards and/or produce fanworks for. But, okay, for the sake of simplicity, let's focus on each show individually. Though since you mentioned a number of supporting characters in your examples, I'll feel free to do the same.

I stopped watching SGA...halfway through

Season 1 SGA has an ongoing antagonistic relationship between John and Bates--and between Bates and Teyla--that's almost entirely unexplored in fic. (Re: the broader argument, it's perhaps worthwhile to note that Bates is black.)

Sherlock--well, it's Holmes/Watson, you can't break them up

Well, I don't ship the pairing at all, so I definitely can. :-) And I do think it's a significant counterargument that John/Sherlock is so immensely popular when Sherlock/Moriarty is right there. By the same token, Muraki/Tsuzuki's a terrible example if you're trying to argue that fans generally prefer hate-ships, given that Hisoka/Tsuzuki (and I believe Tatsumi/Watari, as well) is a much more popular pairing in the same fandom.

Dexter/Ice Truck Killer's a bad example, too, though for a different reason. You're right that it was a popular antagonistic relationship back in the day, but then the obvious next question is: why was Dexter/Doakes virtually non-existent?

I'm not familiar with your other fandoms and so can't comment on them, but a couple more animanga fandoms in which the friendship pairings are much more popular than the antagonistic pairings include Saiyuki (Gojyo/Hakkai vs. Sanzo/Kougaiji) and Prince of Tennis (Tezuka/Fuji, Sanada/Yukimura, and numerous others vs. Atobe/Tezuka).

I do agree with you that a lot of factors are involved when it comes to shipping. But I also think that fandom-as-a-whole's fondness for antagonistic pairings is inconsistent and highly conditional, while its dislike of characters of color (with the obvious exception of Asian characters in animanga and Asian drama fandoms) is much closer to universal.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there are way too many factors to simplify it this way, though.
Example: Psych and Scrubs, in surface, have similar dynamics. White main character with black best friend and older white antagonistic characters. Yet for both shows, I don't ship the same dynamics.

For Scrubs, I would never think of shipping Turk and JD because they're best friends, and Turk's in love with Carla. Meanwhile, I loved the JD/Cox dynamic and felt JD's admiration for Cox made for interesting fic.

For Psych, though, I totally ship Shawn and Gus, in spite of Shawn's canon relationship with Juliet. I also do not get why people ship Shawn with Lassiter.

tldr SHIPPING'S WEIRD DUDE

[(Anonymous)]

But I also think that fandom-as-a-whole's fondness for antagonistic pairings is inconsistent and highly conditional, while its dislike of characters of color (with the obvious exception of Asian characters in animanga and Asian drama fandoms) is much closer to universal.

I don't know that I would say that about fandom-as-a-whole. Slash fandom - I definitely see your point. But I haven't seen any examples in het of fandom skipping over the obvious het ship with a POC to ship a less obvious het pairing with white characters. The opposite in fact. I've always kind of attributed that to het fandom usually having closer ties to canon. Do you have any examples you're thinking of?

*I should note that I'm not saying het shippers are saints - far from it. It's just that this particular trend is not one I've noticed in het.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

Actually...looking at my post, saying "the opposite in fact" was a poor choice of words. I haven't actually seen the opposite. I was just trying to say that, in my experience, when the obvious main het ship includes a POC, het fandom seems more than willing to embrace them. Mileage may vary of course.