Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-12-02 06:28 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-12-02 06:28 pm
[ SECRET POST #2526 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2526 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[Doctor Who]
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03.
[Disney]
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04.
[TMNT]
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05.
[Thor: The Dark World]
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06.
[As Told By Ginger]
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07.
[daughter, purity ring]
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08.
[Sleepy Hollow]
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09.
[Attack on Titan/Shingeki No Kyojin]
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10.
[The Producers]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 053 secrets from Secret Submission Post #361.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)Looking at my reply, it seems that I didn't acknowledge your last sentence. Good to hear that you usually take a bit of time to realize that. Though I would totally understand if you still felt a bit angry about it. Speaking of angry, I realize that my last reply seemed angry and I apologize for that I'm tired and I wanted to reply to you but couldn't think of how to and that came out. I'm going to get some rest now.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)I am sometimes a bit angry about it, but it's gotten a lot better since I ao3-savioured all the het ship options for the characters in question haha!
About bisexual characters: What annoys me most in fandom is the general "NO, you can't pair him up with another guy, he's not gay!" that's still quite present, especially in het-dominated fandoms. I'm always confused about that, like, nobody says he's gey (unless specifically stated in the fic), but he could very well be bisexual so... huh? That's actually a very persistent way bisexuality keeps getting erased in fandom. Characters must be either straight or gay, there is no in-between!
And, ugh, yes, lots of bisexual characters in canon are terribly written and often only bi for the "They're such a whore! Look how much of a whore they are, they even fuck people of their own gender!" -effect >_>
Sleep well!
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 03:07 pm (UTC)(link)I've gotten distracted, so no sleep yet for me. I wouldn't mind chatting for a bit if you're up for it.
Oh, I'm glad you didn't interpret it as angry! Tbh when I read over it after I posted it, I thought it cane off as angry and defensive. I still kinda think it does. There's nothing wrong with getting angry over it. However I'm still glad that you've found a way to avoid coming across it. That way your fandom experience won't be too frustrating.
Ugh, I really hate that bullshit. Admittedly, I was like that when I was younger but I grew the fuck out of that mindset and realized that being gay/bi, etc is not a bad thing. Bisexuality doesn't fare much better in fandom than it does in media in my experience. It is a bit depressing that people in fandom tend to divide characters into straight or gay. For all the talk of how sexuality is fluid in fandom, there is a ton of bisexual erasure. Even on the slash side of fandom, it isn't all that much better.
Or it is used as some excuse for a woman to make out with another woman, but still keep her open to be pursued by the male main character. It is just skeevy as fuck. Kinda similiar to the "it was just a phase" bullshit.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)I don't even think the "bisexuality means I get to fuck twice as many people as the other sexualities yay" wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't almost always used in a slut-shame-y way in canon (and in fandom as well). And you're right, of course, there are just as many "ew no, he's not GAY" people as there are "btw, that character is totally gay even though he a has a canon het relationship" people in fandom. That would actually be interesting if it was explored in a thoughtful way, but most people don't even think about it. It's a certain kind of making a character wildly OOC that is mostly accepted in fandom.
I mean, I don't expect a PWP to do the whole "sorry, I realised I'm gay and can't daste you anymore, canon girlfriend" thing, but some longer, more plot-oriented fic could really do with some sort of explanation that doesn't retcon facts from the canon. And if a writer doesn't want to do that, I don't see why they can't settle on "bisexual" if they absolutely need to explain it.
Ugh, yeah, the "I kissed a girl and I liked it" crowd. That's basically the porn way of doing things - totally lesbian!! ... uh, yeah, until the next hot guy comes by.
I quite frankly don't understand it why bisexuality is something fandom ignores so much when it's actually a pretty good way to subtly change a character's sexual preference without changing too much about the set-up of their canon characterisation. It's much more likely for a person who, so far, only ever dated and had sex with members of the opposite gender to notice "oh hey, I might be into my own gender, too" than to go "hey, I was homosexual all along, ignore my long list of heterosexual relationships". The latter happens in RL as well, of course, but I'd wager that's rarer than the former.
(I think I kind of rambled a bit)
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)That fact it is almost always portrayed as a bad thing has really gotten to me tbh. In fact, that I think that if a character embraced I wouldn't know how to react. On one hand, yay, they're so comfortable with it and embrace that they have a lot more options than most people and revel in it buton the other hand, I might think they're coming off as smug about that fact. Like they're somehow superior because of it. After seeing so much negativity, it is hard not to internalize that shit. I'm working on it though.
I would fucking love a fic if it thoughtfully explored a canonically straight character struggling with an attraction with someone of the same gender. But instead of the character's heterosexual relationships being completely written off and the character settling on the fact they're gay. They come to the realization they're attracted to this one character and maybe others, but realize they're still attracted to people of opposite gender. If that makes any sense at all. Damn, I'm tired. Sounded so much better in my head. Anyway, you see so many fics with people coming to they realization they're gay but never bi. It stinks.
I hate that so much. It is just absolutely disgusting.
I don't know why fandom doesn't do that more often either. It makes much more sense imo but I guess it would be too much work to do or something. And I don't mind the rambling.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)I also often expect a for-once-positive portrayal of a LGBT+ character to slip up, in a "it's too good to be true" kind of way. But really, some shitty things are really hard to not get used to when they're so omnipresent. It's doesn't even have to be internalised stuff but more the fact that we've gotten so used to the shitty portrayals that we don't count on there being good ones - and if there are, there must be a catch.
Yeah, that really sucks. I mean, especially when the characters already had a few canon romance options, the conclusion when attracted to someone of the same gender would first be "oh hey, I'm also attracted to that one person of the same gender while before, I only was attracted to the opposite gender, I might be bi" and not "Oh hey! I must have been gay all along!". I actually think that would even be less work, establishing that sort of situation.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 06:41 pm (UTC)(link)Oh yeah, I expect them to slip up, or rather, I expect the writers to slip up and write something shitty for the character. You're right that it doesn't always become internalized, but for me, someeof it has. You're exactly right on expecting there to be some sort of catch when it comes to LGBT+ characters. After some much shit, there is a feeling of it being too good to be true.
Let's not forget the treatment of those significant other characters, especially women, when it comes to these fics. They're either killed off, their characterization derailed, ignored, etc. I would love for a fic to maturely handle the reaction of the spouse/lover of the character who is struggling with their sexuality. If they're still in the picture, that is. And even if theyre not still romantcally involved. I would love to see their thoughts and feelings explored. They could be there for support. I hate when they are just brushed off.
And omg, I cannot agree with you more on this. I mean sure, that does happen in real life, but the extent it happens in fic is just staggering. How do you think it would be easier?
I may head to bed soon. If I do, would you be up to continuing this converation later? I'm not sure how often you or how long you'd be willing to check/wait for a reply from me though. Might be several hours until I reply.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)I've mostly gotten used to LGBT+ characters who are well written to end up dead somewhere along the way. But yeah, interalising stuff is terrible. Particularly when you realise "Damn, they actually succeeded really well with their plans if the people they're misrepresenting are being influenced by their shit and even start believing it".
Oh yes, I hate it so much when the only way they can think of to split up a canon het pairing to get to their slash is to make the female character the biggest bitch imaginable. I mean, I like slash as well, but that doesn't mean I hate the female characters - I actually often like them and their canon relationship with the other guy. There really is no need for vilifying women for your slash. I hate female characters getting fridged, but I'd actually sometimes prefer that when reading all this hateful bashing they receive.
Right? I mean, sure, it does happen in real life - but not to the same extent it happens in fic.
Sure, no problem - I'm probably here again tomorrow - I'm just not sure about the time, considering time zones and all! Sleep well~
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-03 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 06:37 am (UTC)(link)I've gotten used to it to and it sucks that we just have to get used to it. Sure, we can and are trying to change it but it will take time. And yeah, it is marginally getting better these days, but it still is pretty bad in media that's not made by LGBT people.
I think what I hate most is when they turnthe character into a raging, frothing homophobe. Yes, homophobia is everywhere and it can be thoughfully explored in fic. However most of the time it is simply used to derail a character that gets in the way of someone's slash ship. Ditto! I enjoy slash,but I hate when female characters are bashed and derided just for the sake of someone's ship. That goes for any character tbh. I loathe character bashing.
I love female characters and I especially love slash fic when their relationship with the characters isn't derailed. Especially when they help out and offer a comforting shoulder when the character is down in the dumps. I love friendships in fic. I think I'd rather them simply be ignored than fridged, but being fridged is better than being derailed and bashed endlessly in the fic.
It in no way happens in real life to the extent that fic portrays it.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 11:47 am (UTC)(link)Heh, you're one of the first people to tell me German sounds great. I mostly hear "German sounds so rough and hard" - but I guess that really depends on the person speaking.
Thing is: I don't even want all kinds of super thoughtful ~queer representation~ in media. What I really want is completely normal, well developed characters who just happen to fall somewhere on the LGBT+ spectrum. That's not to say I wouldn't like a good LGBT+ issues-centered plot, but I'd really like it to be treated more like a non-issue more often. Like, a cool action movie where the male lead goes to rescue his boyfriend without changing anything about the rest of the movie because of that/a female lead having a female love interest for non-fanservicy reasons, or a bisexual character in a romcom who can't decide between their female or male love interest without the playing the slut-card, the stupid clichès and if they end up with the same-sex option not settling on "I'm homosexual now!". *rant rant*
I think if the character has a problem with the fact that their partner cheated on them/left them for a person of the same gender, there is an option of them not dealing too well with it, considering that they were hurt by it and hurt people don't always react rationally. But as soon as a female character goes the "You fucking fag" route in fic, I always hit the backbutton real fast. It has to be done right and with some consideration for the female character's feelings/character development/coping mechanism, and if the author doesn't want to deal with it? Well just don't go the raging homophobe route, damn it!
I really love fic where the female characters are supportive as well. Friendship fic is great. And yes, sure, ignored is better than fridged is better than bashed. And there are really other ways to build some conflict in a slash fic other than throwing in a completely OOC, frothing at the mouth female character ...
Right? I mean, most people I know don't hate their ex-partners after they broke up. Even if they ignore each other afterwards because of hurt feelings (which is understandable), I rarely encountered the "I hate their guts know, I hop they die in a fire" that is so popular in media(and fandom).
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-12-05 03:55 am (UTC)(link)Honestly, any language can sound harsh and rough. It just depends on the person speaking it imo. German is fantastic from what I can tell.
This, so fucking much. I would kill for a character who happens to be LGBT+ and there's no hamfisted issues plot arc for them. My thoughts exactly. Theres's almost always an issue related arc when it comes to LGBT+ characters, and most of those arcs are handled so poorly that I don't like seeing them. There's also the fact that I use media as an escape and to be bombarded with so many of those storylines, after facing that shit in real life just sucks. I know they need to be addressed but I'd like if it didn't happen in damn near every storyline. And omg, I'd love to see all of those ecamples of yours happen someday. Especially that bisexual romcom. I'm not a romcom fan for the most part, but I'd watch the hell out of that.
That is true and they could always use that to explore that character's reaction and insecurities, and have them come to terms with what happened. It could make for an interesting characte development arc if handled correctly. I don't see why they have to go down the homophobe route. Especially if they hate the character so much. Why not just leave them out of the damn fic?
Finding fic that potrays the canon female romance interest as supportive is difficult as hell. I love it when the highlight the their friendship so damn much. There's a shit ton of better ways to cause conflict, but usually the fall back on derailing the love interest character. It is just ridiculous. Out of all the possible things to induce angst, why fall back on that?
I rarely encounter that either. Usually after some time of sorting out feelings and getting over the break-up, they don't continue to loath their exes and the ground they walk on.