[ SECRET POST #2539 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2539 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 066 secrets from Secret Submission Post #363.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. http://i.imgur.com/0VetgMk.jpg

[dreemyweird]

I. With the incredible amount of Holmesian works out there, I'm pretty sure somebody already wrote an extensive piece of metafiction on the subject of Tonga.

II. Tbqh, I did not see it as a full-blown fail, even by modern standards. What exactly is implausible about the story? That Small saved him? That he was protecting Small? That he shot folks with poisonous darts?

In 1974, a film crew and anthropologist Trilokinath Pandit attempted friendly contact by leaving a tethered pig, some pots and pans, some fruit and toys on the beach at North Sentinel Island. One of the islanders shot the film director in the thigh with an arrow.

And look at the descriptions in SIGN:

"...He was stanch and true, was little Tonga. No man ever had a more
faithful mate..."

"...They are a fierce, morose, and intractable people, though capable of forming most devoted
friendships when their confidence has once been gained..."

I wouldn't say this sounds incredibly racist.

III. Literature existed when the notion of political correctness did not. Get over it.

[(Anonymous)]

The fail referred to might be that Tonga is described in such inhuman terms. That's the kind of fail that's hard to explore, though, because you just find yourself going "Yeah, that's... wow."

[dreemyweird]

The two problems I can see there are these:
- Tonga's feelings and thoughts are never referred to (save for his loyalty and gratitude to Small, which is, btw, not something to be overlooked)
- these paragraphs:

"'They are naturally hideous, having large, misshapen heads, small, fierce eyes, and distorted features."

"...and the unhallowed dwarf with his hideous face, and his strong yellow teeth gnashing at us in the light of our lantern."

Which... tells us nothing, really, apart from the fact that Doyle was the ugly anon of his time. [not really, he wasn't. But okay, he found the Andamanese ugly]

And yes, of course there is some degree of racial prejudice behind that (which should come as no surprise), but I would say it is quite mild in comparison to many things written at that time. Maybe I'm alone in that, but I never found myself going "yeah, that's... wow" when reading SIGN? I read Tonga as a pretty sympathetic character.

[(Anonymous)]

More sympathetic than Small at any rate. Guy was a douche, even if Sholto Sr. was a bigger one.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm taking about the physical descriptions - which are really quite vile, especially considering this is not a person who is supposed to be in any way deformed, just not European-looking - not Tonga's character, which I agree is sympathetic. He had good reason to be loyal to Small and didn't understand why killing Sholto would be all that bad. I'm also not blaming Doyle so much, just thinking of where a person reading it today would find race!fail, and I assume for most people, that would start with the most blatant things, like describing Tonga as looking "misshapen," before progressing into issues of colonialism. I was taken aback when I first read the descriptions of Tonga years ago. It was like looking at old Blackhawk comics and illustrations of the Chop-Chop character and doing a double-take because he was drawn so differently than the other characters.

[(Anonymous)]

The language is pretty other-ing - just because it's positive doesn't mean that it's not painting the person as exotic and alien, and that's not really great. That said, I'm not sure what one would expect from a series written by someone who was a citizen of a country running a massive, exploitative, racist imperial enterprise across the globe. Like, yeah, he shared in beliefs that were common and normal in his class and culture. Surprise!

I do agree (I guess) with OP that it would be interesting to see more stuff that explores the colonial imperialist elements of the Holmes canon, because there's a lot of it and it's almost all super fascinating to me. Although describing it as 'race-fail', I think, is kind of reductive, it's definitely something that's present there.

[dreemyweird]

The language is pretty other-ing - just because it's positive doesn't mean that it's not painting the person as exotic and alien, and that's not really great.

But exotic and alien was precisely what Tonga was to everyone involved (apart from Small, maybe, who says that Tonga was his "faithful mate")?

I guess there might be something problematic in how nothing is said about Tonga's feelings or thoughts, but

That said, I'm not sure what one would expect from a series written by someone who was a citizen of a country running a massive, exploitative, racist imperial enterprise across the globe. Like, yeah, he shared in beliefs that were common and normal in his class and culture. Surprise!

...yeah.

I agree that more meta on the colonial imperialist elements of the Canon would be good to see, but it has more to do with the scholarly side of the issue and mentality studies than with SJW-style analyses of how problematic Doyle's characterizations were. Such analyses are never insightful and contribute little to the topic.

[arcadiaego]

III. Literature existed when the notion of political correctness did not. Get over it.

Calling racism political correctness doesn't actually make it better.

ha

[(Anonymous)]

Write it yourself. No one owns you a meta. Frankly, I'm so tired of all the racism talk in fandoms. So Doyle described him as a faithfull dog, so what? Different times, different perceprtions. I don't see meta on how Irregulars were poor orphants used by Holmes and payed very little.
At least he was prpgressive in regards of women, though Mary's 'angelic' visage was a typical ideal for woman at the time.

Re: ha

[(Anonymous)]

But no one cares about exploitation of poor children if they're poor WHITE BRITISH children. :P

Cuz you know, classism isn't a thing, it's all racism.

*throws things angrily*

Re: ha

[intrigueing]

For some reason this comment immediately reminded me of that George Washington youtube video. You know, the old memetic badass one: HE'LL SAVE CHILDREN BUT NOT THE BRITISH CHILDREN. :D

Re: ha

[arcadiaego]

There's masses of writing about poor working class children in that time.

Re: ha

[dreemyweird]

AFAIK, the sum Holmes paid to the Irregulars was pretty decent. They were paid a shilling a day and a guinea for the discovery of any important clue; a guinea was a huge deal for a street Arab (considering the fact that it could cover all one's expenses for as long as a week).

A shilling a day, in its turn, could amount to the salary of a lower-class worker (depending on the individual worker, of course, and on the kind of trade they were engaged in). Since the Irregulars do not seem to be working for Holmes full-time, it does sound like a fair deal. They themselves also appear to be content with the situation.

And as to Mary, her character is only elaborated upon in SIGN, but she struck me as a brave and intelligent woman, which was not exactly a part of the typical ideal.

Write it yourself. No one owns you a meta. Frankly, I'm so tired of all the racism talk in fandoms.

^all of this, tho

Re: ha

[(Anonymous)]

Watson even goes out of his way to admit that Mary wasn't exactly pretty, it was her expression (sensitive and sympathetic, I think) that made an impression on him off the bat. And in The Man With The Twisted Lip he appreciatively equates her to a lighthouse that birds flock to, for her tendency to always attract people in trouble, which is also not exactly a feminine ideal.

Re: ha

[intrigueing]

Yeah, I mean, a society where kids live on the street doing odd jobs is kind of fucked up, but since Holmes couldn't exactly change it, he was probably improving their lives considerably since they'd probably be pickpocketing or doing much less interesting/more miserable work otherwise. And he paid them quite well, even though both he and Watson seem to have been pretty poor during most of the 1880s.

(I gotta admit I have a HUGE soft spot for all those fics that posit that the two of them helped the Irregulars make something of their lives by recommending them for apprenticeships and/or inspiring them to pursue an interesting profession. They're usually uber cheesy but I love them).

Re: ha

[arcadiaego]

Different times, different perceprtions.

Well that's that settled conclusively then. 0_o.

Secret 8 - The Sign of Four (Sherlock Holmes novel)

[transcriptanon]

[Picture is an illustration from the "Sherlock Holmes" books. It shows two men threatening a third person with guns?]

The fact that Sherlock Holmes fans haven't written any explorations for the race!fail in The Sign of Four bothers me more than the original race!fail did.

[intrigueing]

Buh, I don't care that people don't make a big stink about it because..what? OMG it was Victorian times and people were kind of ignorant? No shit. There's just...not much there.

However, I think it could be really good fodder for some fanfics that sort of elaborated on him and/or how other people viewed him, if Holmes and Watson just kind of dismissed him as just another bad guy in a string of bad guys or if they ever found reason to think back to the whole situation and see it differently or with an added perspective. That sort of thing. Because that would be cool and actually interesting and relevant to read.

[dreemyweird]

I'd totally read that.

[blueonblue]

People have written about it, there has been a lot of writing on colonialism and 19th century literature.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, all you need to do is Google "racism sign of four conan doyle" or something similar and there's thousands of results, including fannish ones. I don't know why OP thinks no-one ever noticed or cared about this before.

[blueonblue]

Because...

a) if it isn't on tumblr, it doesn't exist.

or

b) troll.

[arcadiaego]

I wish this comment had come at the start of the thread. I feel pretty gross having read the other parts of it. :/

[blueonblue]

Successful troll :(

I gave up on the thread at 200 years since the British Empire. 200 years? Of course, it is possible that anon was posting from the future.

Btw, nice username. Brideshead Revisited?