fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2558 ]

[ SECRET POST #2558 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2558 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Frozen]

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[Cabin in the Woods]

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[Trailer Park Boys]

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07. [posted twice]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

08. [SPOILERS for Elementary]

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09. [SPOILERS for Zelda comic]

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10. [SPOILERS for Breaking Bad]

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11. [SPOILERS for Dan and Mab's Furry Adventures]
[WARNING for suicide]

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The past: raised to be Catholic. From a large and devout Catholic family. Etc.

So now that that's sorted, I'm seriously conflicted. Actually, I've been conflicted for years. It's caused me no small amount of anxiety. It's not about believing or God in Jesus Christ that's the problem-- that's been too ingrained in me to do anything about now, haha-- but man, I kind of despise organized religion and I hate the church and I think what's written in the bible is bullshit and I think hardcore devout people are crazycakes and I think religion does a lot more harm in the world than good. D: So you can see why I'm so conflicted.

Take the whole "God hates homosexuality" thing. A huge part of me does not believe that to be true, but there's always a little voice in my head whispering "BUT WHAT IF IT'S TRUE? WHAT THEN??" Which sums up my whole dilemma. There are so many things I don't agree with (being a liberal, bisexual feminist and all), but I can't shake that doubt. I won't even dare try anything with a woman because of it. And it shames me greatly because I don't want to BE one of those people who think that way.

I'm such a hypocrite, I swear. I will verbally cut down someone who makes a (for example) homophobic comment and I'm all for LGBTQ rights/equality, but I won't even date a girl because I'm scared that there's a slight possibility I might go to hell. I seriously, seriously hate myself sometimes.

Ugh. Advice? And please don't tell me to go atheist/agnostic/whatever. Tried that, didn't work.

why don't you just be yourself

Elaboration: I know I won't go to hell for dating a girl. It's the things we'd do after we started dating (which I'd very much want to do) that worries me. Just to be clear.

Hey! Lesbian Christian here. I totally relate to how you're feeling. Here're my thoughts: I don't believe homosexuality is a sin at all and hopefully someday the church will recognize how terribly the bible has been interpreted here. But if it were (if! if), it would not be this huge, terrible, unforgivable sin that so many people seem to believe it is. Many Christians are liars, thieves, adulterers, etc., but they don't worry about what will happen to them in the end because basically this: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A35-39&version=NIV

(Sorry, I'm not usually the verse-spouting type, I swear.)

Many ~~Christians~~ people are liars, thieves, adulterers, etc., but they don't worry about what will happen to them in the end

FTFY. Pretty sure your list up there is the opposite of the fruits of the Spirit:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22-23&version=ESV

FWIW, there are also a few denominations that don't believe the concept of "hell" is anywhere in the corpus of texts that has come to be known as the Christian Bible. Though these will vary as to how modern/conservative they are....

I loved when they tackled this issue in Queer as Folk.
I'll find you a quote.

And since God is love and God doesn't make mistakes, then you must be exactly the way he wants you to be. And that goes for every person, every planet, every mountain, every grain of sand, every song, every tear... and every faggot. We're all his, Emmett. He loves us all.

SA

Found the scene! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG-pnOvN7wE

Look into how different branches of Christianity and Catholicism treat homosexuality and research the passages involving the treatment of homosexuality and compare them with how they treat other actions.

And some soul searching and reflecting on why you have your beliefs could help too.

I went through a phase like that too. I'm trying to think of how I got through it but my memory is kind of fuzzy. I feel like one day I just kind of turned into someone who readily admits to picking and choosing which bits to accept and which bits to reject. I like parts of Christian belief and I go along with it and I threw out the parts that I don't like.

But I know that's not very helpful. I know it's not as simple as "stop believing in those things if they bother you". I just can't seem to remember how I got past that part.

I guess I just want to tell you that you're not the only one who has gone through this and I wish you luck in figuring things out.

Decide if it's religion or faith you're conflicted about. Religion's always going to be imperfect because it's created by people. Even in the Bible, Jesus worked against the temples, where those temples were taking advantage of the people. Decide if you can live with that - by which I mean, don't let the crazy parts affect you the way you describe. If you can't, maybe you need to take a break from the communal aspects and figure out what your faith means to you, personally. Spend a bit of time in solitary prayer or something.

Figure out which bits of religion are what you believe people are saying, and which bits God - as you believe in him - might say. If you believe in a Puritanical fire-and-brimstone sort of God, I can't help you there. If you believe in a loving God, then bear in mind that Christ is really about love and tolerance. Would he really condemn an entire group of people, when he was the one who went around saving those that the majority condemned?

Hope you find something that works for you, nonny.

Religion's always going to be imperfect because it's created by people. Even in the Bible, Jesus worked against the temples, where those temples were taking advantage of the people.

This! Helpful to actually read through all of the bits in red (if you've a red ink Bible handy), AND all of the bits in black around the bits in red, as a lot of the brand name churches (and even most of the off-label ones) tend to gloss right over the book as a whole, and only pick out two or three verses from the last hundred pages or so.

Having come from and left behind a Catholic background, hopefully I can offer some help, even though I ended up in a different place than you did.

Even if homosexuality were a sin, sinning isn't what sends you to hell. Any Christian will tell you that everybody sins. It sounds like the kinds of churches that you don't like are the ones that get legalistic about unimportant things and lose sight of the forest for the trees - which is exactly what Jesus preached against at several points in the Gospels. Take a look at Matthew 25, from verse 31 to the end of the chapter, where Jesus talks about who will be granted entry into his kingdom and who will be cast into everlasting fire. It's all about how you treat people, not what you do in the bedroom.

For more practical advice, I'd suggest you look into the scriptural scholarship of the only place in the New Testament to talk about homosexuality: the writings of Paul. (Because Jesus never said word one about homosexuality.) There's a great deal of debate over what he was actually talking about, since he made up a new word (that has since been translated as "homosexuality"), despite writing in Greek - an if anybody would have words for sexual encounters with people of the same gender, it was the Greeks. Do some research into the academic and theological studies surrounding the translation, and see if you still think that what he really meant was same-sex romantic relationships in the way we understand them today.

My advice is to seek out people, online or in person, who have a strong Catholic or similar faith and who don't believe gay is a sin, and talk to them about their beliefs. If you don't feel ready or able to do that, look online for articles and open letters that have been written by people with strong faith, because I know I've encountered a number of them, and I could tell that if I were conflicted they would have helped me.

those are fears the church/those in power inculcate on purpose to control the population

it will take you a while to get fully deprogrammed

OMG, are you me? I mean, I'm asexual, so I don't have nearly the same amount of trouble about dating, but the rest of it... yeah, been there.

I did manage to nail down that it's organized religion that I have a problem with, not faith. It isn't just a problem with religions, it's just what happens when people create organizations that get really big. Governments, charities, unions, religions, on and on... at some point they start moving away from trying to help people and start getting entitled and callous and awful. Power corrupts, etc.

My advice, such as it is, is to go your own way, and always remember to love.

Oh, *hugs*.

I was raised Evangelical Protestant science isn't real isn't Jesus a wonderful capitalist and even now, I cannot shake a lot of what I was raised with. I do not believe it anymore, but I'm deeply afraid of hell and pretty sure I'm going there because I can't stop that nagging voice in the back of my mind that condemns my choices and my life and who I am.

I completely sympathize. I dont' know how to stop it though so I have no advice.

The non-denominational Judeo-Christian sect I was born and raised in decided to go Evangelical Protestant a few decades back. These people frustrate me no end (I'm the "help me they hate books now" anon) and I cannot begin to fathom why formerly well-read, and deeply-researched Christians who acted "as the Bereans did" have now turned into "Whatever Dear Leader says is right! Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus!" muppets. (Killing two birds with one stone, as they're going for worshipping Him in vain AND vain repetitions in one go.)

They believed in hell for a while (I still don't, never did, and the scholarship has always backed us up on this; along with trinitarianism being a pagan insert post-Constantine), then they didn't, then they did, now Dear Leader's latest missive (which none of the faithful pay the least bit of attention to, but which all the Evangelicals hang off every word of), conveniently posted in an out-of-the-way place no one is going to see it, there's no hell again. (Well. There never was. But you get the picture.)

TL;DR: Your comment explains a lot about the severely misguided people in my own church, thanks.

*hugs*

It's so frustrating. Like you say, I would have an easier time understanding if my family was no teeth ignorant hillbillies, but my mom has a ph.d. and my daddy has an M.A. They have gotten progressively more conservative over the years; I blame it on the encroachment of religion into the Republican party and the conflation of Republican party ideals with Christian ideals (hint: they are not the same LOL!).

I don't know what makes educated, reasonable people lose their minds. Sometimes I wonder if my family was always as crazy as I think they are now and I just couldn't see it because I was a kid and not perceptive in that way.

I suppose you'll want to take this with a grain of salt because I'm an atheist, but I was raised in a somewhat middle-of-the-road but not crazily conservative Protestant sect. I never really worried about hell because my religion wasn't really into the whole fire and brimstone thing.

The issues you're struggling with now are pretty much the same issues I struggled with. It was really hard to believe that God is supposed to fair and just could damn homosexuals and unbelievers. It was also really hard to believe that a loving God would allow so much suffering happening to good people. Phrases like "God works in mysterious ways" always left a sour taste in my mouth because it implies that as terrible as we feel, God knows best. That's really cold comfort when your grandmother is dying or children are starving somewhere in the world.

Anyway. It's a tough struggle because the ideas are in direct conflict. Either God is good, loving and benevolent and would support your defense of homosexuals, or he's not and he wouldn't. Most people who want to remain in the faith believe the latter, because the alternative is unthinkable. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to be conflicted. These are issues people have struggled with for centuries, and the answers are still not entirely satisfactory.

The key is to find peace with the knowledge that like everyone else, you're trying to find the answers. In the meantime, you try as best you can to live a good life regardless of what you think God might want. Morality and ethics are not permanently tied to religion, they can be exercised separately. As long as you do that, I think you'll be happy with your life now. What happens after life... well, that's something we'll all have to find out eventually.

I'm wondering what kind of Catholic upbringing you had. In conventional Catholic theology, homosexual sex isn't any worse than heterosexual sex outside marriage--the issue is having sex within marriage, not who in particular you lust after. Catholicism doesn't define just being gay as a sin. It's homosexual acts that are considered sinful.

I'm not trying to defend these teachings, just saying that they aren't what your family appears to think they are. I don't think it's Catholocism that made your family assholes about gay people is what I'm saying. The prevailing actual teachings of the church, even in conservative parishes, is that there's no reason to hate gay people.

Furthermore, a lot of Catholics--at least in the US--flat out disagree with the Vatican when it comes to homosexuality. A lot of Catholic communities are really gay friendly--I went to a Jesuit college that had an actual LGBT retreat, and it wasn't telling gay kids never to have sex. It was telling them they're welcome. If you're worried about reconciling your faith with your sexuality, I suggest just finding another church.

Edited 2014-01-04 08:59 (UTC)

I'm an agnostic who wasn't raised in a religious household, but I did go to a Christian school and feel closer to Christianity than any other religion. Anyway, my anxious brain has definitely got me caught up in these types of thought circles - "But what if I am going to hell because I blasphemed and lie and disrespected my parents and support gay rights and masturbate and never, ever, ever go to church and AAARGH!!!1!1"

But eventually I put an end to all of those anxious thoughts by firmly reminding myself anytime they started up that I wanted nothing to do with a God so petty and arbitrary. And doing that actually allowed me to become more spiritually open to the parts of religion in general I related to, like the messages of compassion and forgiveness.

I don't know how much this might help you, but whatever happens I hope you find peace in yourself and your faith and know that you are worthy of happiness.

i dont think god cares. well i mean im sure he does but more in the doting father type deal than tyrannically. he cares about you and the things you do im sure. but finding real love, or being sexual or perverted? he loves you, and part of loving something is wanting it to be happy. if you love and respect his other creations, and you love yourself, and you love him, and you are happy, i dont think hes going to be picky, you know?

the bible may be the word of god but keep in mind that it was written down by human beings and we are flawed. i dont mean to be one of those cherry picking types, but all the good things in the bible are from god, i think. the other things, the hateful and judgmental things, dont represent his creeds. if you think god is love then id just absorb that love and share it. never trust other people with your religion, honestly. dont trust those that recorded god's words. we aren't perfect like him. we were bound to get it messed up.

just try to think about this not necessarily from gods standpoint but from as perfect a position as you can. god loves you and he loves every other person on this planet, and if you love someone who loves you, and youre happy together, i think this would please god, no matter what gender you are.

it may help to consider the possibility that god does not adhere to the bible's confines. maybe the bible isnt his word at all. either way, i think god is loving and attentive, and youre here to enjoy your time on this planet, because its a mere drop on the timeline of the universe, and you have an eternity to spend with god. this time here is precious and you should milk it for everything its worth. god would never condemn you to hell for appreciating his earth, id say. really i think the only people who are in hell are those who are separated from god. you believe in him right? whoever or whatever he may be? and if you love him and keep yourself close to him then you're never gonna be in hell.

i guess i rambled a little but i hope my insight helps, or at the very least brings another perspective to you.

his creeds.

...not to mention the fact that the "creeds" (stuff Catholics and Anglicans repeat by rote over and over again) and the loyalty tests ~~and the Inquisition~~ came many many many many years later, and are actually commanded against, in the text itself.

SA

Oh, and there's also no concept of hell in the book. Not even the one you're talking about "separated from God." There is CHOICE, and eternal life, or oblivion. That's it. No torment, no torture, no pitchforks.

....no Hellboy, either but, eh, sacrifices (*is shot*) must be made....

You're not a hypocrite! We all have a human right, not an obligation, to search for love/companionship/sex among other consenting adults. (Or age-appropriate people, in the case of teens.) There is no contradiction between deciding you won't personally do something and defending/advocating for the equality of those who do it.

I was raised in a more liberal Christian tradition, but I still experienced periods of doubt involving my homosexuality. I think it helped me to be exposed to both secular and seminarian scholarship about the Bible, and to meet other queer people who share my faith.

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[ SECRET POST #2558 ]

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