[ SECRET POST #2588 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2588 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 103 secrets from Secret Submission Post #370.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I have the reverse problem. I'll be reading a nice little fic for my OTP, and then suddenly there is un-tagged 'pair the spares' in there. For charcters that I do not see together AT ALL. But they're not the main focus, so it wasn't tagged for. But I don't personally see them being in character if they're written as being a couple.

Oh, what the hell. My OTP is Dean/Cas, and the second pairing is Sam/Gabriel.

But yeah, I see your point about not being able to find pairing focused fic if every little thing is tagged for. Still, I would have liked some warning that a fic was going to have other pairings.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT
I think "x/y - freeform" is used for that?

[inevitableentresol]

What on earth does freeform mean? I thought it was a description of a style, a kind of exploratory prose. But now I've seen it used so many ways I no longer know.

Does it really mean 'x/y - although they're not canon'? Because that's most non-gen fics out there. ie, most of fanfic.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's something that the AO3 system adds, not the writers. I remember a tag wrangler talking about it here once. It refers to a certain type of tag.

*googles because can't remember exactly* From the AO3 FAQ:

"Each tag belongs to a category: Relationship, Character, Fandom, or Additional/Freeform. Tag names must be unique, so if a tag already exists in one category, then when it is used in another category, the Archive automatically adds the name of the category as a suffix."

So, it's a way of making sure tags that use the same wording but have different meanings are unique from one another.

[inevitableentresol]

Thanks for your explanation.

Although I'd heard the AO3 tag wrangling FAQs were convoluted, and there's proof, as I didn't understand any of that, or why it would work.

I nearly thought I had it on the third re-read, but... no.

[dizmo]

Wrangler popping head in.

Basically, no two tags can have the same name, even if they're different types of tags.

So if, for instance, Harry Potter is already a character tag, if someone puts 'Harry Potter' in as a fandom, the system will automatically change it to 'Harry Potter - Fandom'. If they put it in as an Additional (AKA Freeform) tag, the system will automatically change it to 'Harry Potter - Freeform'. Therefore, they are distinct tags with different names and the system will not confuse them.

Hope that made it slightly more understandable.

[inevitableentresol]

If they put it in as an Additional (AKA Freeform) tag, the system will automatically change it to 'Harry Potter - Freeform'.

This is the bit I don't understand. So every time anyone adds a tag manually, it's automatically set to 'freeform'? Even if it isn't actually freeform, it's a fandom or character, only it's just rare and so isn't on the tag list yet?

I'm glad to talk to a tag wrangler. Firstly, thanks. I love the tags on AO3 and use them to search with a lot. They're really good.

Secondly, can't you just have two different categories of tag? Fixed, where you can only choose from existing tags, and additional (what you already call 'freeform', I guess)?

Then writers can tag their feels, or whatever, with freeform. Or add tags when something's rare or new and not in the system yet. And then if an freeform tag is used enough times by enough different authors, a bot picks it up and adds it to the existing tags list.

Or is that what you're already doing? Just you divide between 'freeform' and all the other categories? And don't use bots - or do you?

It does confuse me when I see a pairing or character marked 'freeform' when it's already a popular character or pairing. How did that happen?

Sorry for all the stupid questions. You must have heard them many times before.

[dizmo]

Not exactly. What gets added depends on two things:

1. If the tag's ever been used before.
2. What field the user puts the tag in.

The 'Additional Tags' field used to be called 'Freeform Tags' back in the early days of the archive. It's still there in the code.

If someone puts in a tag in ANY field that has never been used before, then absolutely nothing changes about the tag. It just gets added as a tag (because, no, we don't use bots. New tags are added when people tag with them.)

However, since you filter between Fandoms, Characters, Relationships, and Additional Tags (freeforms) separately, they're kept apart in the system.

So if, for instance, a fandom gets a brand new character named Billy Newchar, if they tag 'Billy Newchar' in the character field, then just plain 'Billy Newchar' is created as a character tag. The wrangler for that fandom sees that he's been tagged for and goes and marks the tag so that Billy can show up in the autocomplete and the filters. All is well.

If another user then comes along later and puts 'Billy Newchar' in a different field, then the system sees that 'Billy Newchar' is already an existing tag in the Character field, so there can't be a Relationship or a Fandom or an Additional tag with the name of 'Billy Newchar', so it looks at what field the tag was entered in and automatically adds the name of that field so that the new tag is unique.

Basically, you'll only see a character or relationship marked freeform if someone put that character or relationship in the Additional Tags field instead of the Character field or Relationship field.

... Does that clear it up at all?

[rabidsamfan]

I'd love to be able to differentiate between the main characters and p.o.v. characters of a fic and the characters who appear, but aren't the focus. Perhaps someday someone will think of a way to do that!

[dizmo]

Well, for pairings, 'Minor A/B' in the additional tags field is gaining traction, so you can note it and filter it in or out if you want without it being in the main pairing tag. If enough people start to do it with characters too, we'll start canonizing it.

(ETA: Really, when I spoke of my peeve, I meant when people do it with no modification to it. Like... 'Thor/Loki' in the fandom field or something. 'Minor Loki/Thor' in the freeforms is great. As long as there's something to set it apart.)

As far as something official in the interface, it's been proposed and is being considered, so you never know.

[(Anonymous)]

Ugh, yes this. I think fandom has gotten over the Sam/Gabe thing a bit now though, so thankfully you don't see it as much anymore.

What bothers me even more is surprise connotations of Wincest. It's much rarer, but I have come across a couple of D/C fics that mention Dean having had past Wincest-y feelings or experiences that aren't tagged appropriately, and it is the absolute fastest way to pull me out of a fic. It's totally fine that people ship Wincest, of course, but I don't. I don't see it in the characters and it's actually a major squick of mine, so to see it mentioned in passing as a completely normal, acceptable thing for the characters in a fic that focuses on a different pairing is infuriating.

[(Anonymous)]

I am still amused people seem to think Gabe/Sam was 'pairing the spares' and not you know something that started as a rarepair.

[(Anonymous)]

Ayrt

Oh absolutely it's a pairing in its own right (I can see how insulting that second sentence might have come off - sorry!) but it was also a common spare the pairs thing in d/c fic for a while there. Like, some writers explicitly said that's what they were doing, even.

[(Anonymous)]

In both case tags are not used correctly. In the first case they should not list every goddamn character from the series, especially if they are just briefly mentioned; on your case the authors SHOULD have put that second pairing in the tags, as they were part of a secondary plot, and clearly an imprtant part of that fic.

People forget that tags are a tool designed to help readers find or avoid stories in an efficient way. Idiots.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you calling the people in this thread idiots or are you referring to the authors?

I'm just pointing out something that I find annoying. It's just as easy for an author to say "mentions of x/y" or "side x/y". That way they warn people of the content without having their story show up in a tag that it shouldn't.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I was referring to the people who overtag. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I actually agree with you.