[ SECRET POST #2666 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2666 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #381.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[darkmanifest]

I thought it was a conversation of what Tyrion actually did, not the extenuating circumstances of why he did it. I'm not condemning him for the horrible situation Tywin forced him to participate in, I'm not saying he should have been punished for it like the willing rapists that Tywin and the guards were, but he did rape her. From Tysha's perspective, violated by a dozen people without her consent, Tyrion was probably just one more.

And frankly I'm getting a little weirded out by how many people are climbing out of the woodwork to completely ignore the horror Tysha endured to tell me about poor Tyrion's feelings.

[(Anonymous)]

I totally anticipated, the moment I typed that comment, to be rebutted with, "You're ignoring the victim's feelings to defend the rapist!" This is going pretty much along the lines of every Internet conversation about Tyrion ever.

And yet it still doesn't change the fact that this thread is about Tyrion's morality, since it responds not only to a secret about his perceived "goodness" but also to a comment vouching for his character. That comment's reasoning is, "He's no rapist," and your counter is, "He did in fact rape someone". The counter-counter, "The circumstances of that event make me conflicted," is neither irrelevant nor categorically refuting your statement. Tysha's feelings? Nobody is denying she was raped. But it absolutely matters, in this particular conversation, to stipulate that Tyrion was unwilling, coerced, and only 13 when her rape happened. Why are we talking about Tyrion's feelings? Because this entire thread is about them, his feelings and what he does with them and what kind of a person that makes him.

[darkmanifest]

The counter-counter, "The circumstances of that event make me conflicted," is neither irrelevant nor categorically refuting your statement.

Then what is that statement supposed to mean, exactly? That one is conflicted about the circumstances surrounding the rape that Tyrion committed - which I completely understand, since they were some fucked-up circumstances - or conflicted about whether or not Tyrion committed rape at all? I don't have an issue with the former, and I apologize if that's what I'm mistakenly railing against. It's the latter conflict that I'm addressing.

To me, it's about the reality of actions apart from his internal feelings and intentions. Tysha didn't consent to any of the people who assaulted her. That Tyrion didn't consent to the assault, either, doesn't make her lack of consent to to him any less true. His participation in something he didn't want to do does not make him a monster or a criminal or anything other than a victim who victimized someone else at the same time. But he did victimize her.

[(Anonymous)]

See, what you keep sticking to is this solipsistic discussion about whether or not what happened to Tysha was rape, when the dialogue taking place here given the larger context is whether or not Tyrion is morally reprehensible because he was forced to rape his wife. When you rebutted noodly's claim with, "Didn't he rape Tysha?" the implication is clearly that Tyrion is a morally reprehensible rapist, and nobody would see it otherwise, because that is the big issue we've been discussing. You entered in the middle of a morality debate but didn't disclaim otherwise -- that for you, this was only a yes or no question.

What do you want us to say at this point? That Tysha was raped. Yes, she was. That what Tyrion did was rape? People are evidently in disagreement about that in this thread. That we should disregard "extenuating circumstances"? No, we can't, because the extenuating circumstances are the key to this discussion: we're making a moral judgment on the character, so we have to look at the case as a whole. And before you go at me again for disregarding Tysha's side in favor of Tyrion's -- it's what happens when you discuss a nominal character whose only role is to develop another. The only ways we can even talk about Tysha at all is either in relation to Tyrion or in the context of victimization of women in ASOIAF in general, and this is the former of those conversations.

[darkmanifest]

I wasn't trying to imply that Tyrion was morally reprehensible, just that he did rape someone. I wasn't approaching it as a morality debate, but, as you said, a yes or no question. ASoIAF is a series where somebody can have done, threatened, or allowed absolutely horrible things and still be a decent overall person in the extremely fucked up circumstances that Westeros allows. So I think I assumed that asserting that Tyrion was forced to rape someone wasn't actually passing a moral judgment on his character in the context of such a universe.

And I'm not trying to get anyone to say anything. It's not a win or lose/right or wrong debate, I have my position, and other people have theirs. I acknowledge that people disagree that Tyrion committed rape; I feel that he did, that it's possible to do something like that against his will, and to not be guilty of any actual wrongdoing.

it's what happens when you discuss a nominal character whose only role is to develop another.

This is probably the core of my entire issue. I'm trying to discuss the theoretical position and perspective of a character who isn't actually a character, but an event that happened to an actual character. It's true I wasn't being fair in dismissing everyone else's focus on Tyrion's feelings, when Tyrion's feelings are all we have for sure. I resent that, but it's not ours or the character's fault that that's the way it is.