[ SECRET POST #2722 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2722 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 067 secrets from Secret Submission Post #389.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - spam comment ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[diet_poison]

ia with this

also, I am not in the camp of being adamant that it was an actual rape scene in the books (not sure about the show) - there is room for interpretation imo

[philstar22]

In the book, it was a little creepy but there was consent eventually even if she said no first. I'd call the book version dubcon. It is creepy, but I don't think it is quite rape. On the show there was no consent at all. She kept saying no and he kept going. At no point does she give in and consent.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah...In the book it seems to convey that Jaime is often more willing than Cersei, and this gives her a lot of power over the relationship because she has to decide to give in when he pleads. To instead convey that Jaime will just take it by force if she's reluctant almost changes the relationship entirely.

[philstar22]

Exactly. She was the one with the power in a lot of ways in their relationship. He is completely in love with her. She does love him (at least until he loses his hand), but she loves power more. And in the world they live in, sex is one of the few means for women to have any sort of power and she takes complete advantage of that. It is an important part of her character as much as Jaime's devotion to her until the later books is an important part of his. He'd do almost anything for her. He does do almost anything for her. So for him to cross that line and deny her the ability to say no not only is rape but it is completely out of character for both of them.

[diet_poison]

Agreed.

[sarillia]

I never really know what to say about scenes like this. If it was real life, I would say it all depends on what the person who may or may not have been raped thinks of it, but obviously it's different with fictional characters. I just kind of point out that ideally everyone involved in sex will have no reservations from the start while acknowledging that some people are okay with this kind of thing playing out and it's better to spend time helping the people who aren't okay with it than to try to badger people into being upset about something they're not.

[philstar22]

That is how it plays out in the book, though. On the show she clearly says no over and over and clearly doesn't want to have sex. In the book it was questionable and given the nature of their relationship most likely consensual. In the show, though, the way they wrote it, there was clearly no consent.

[sarillia]

I still think it was questionable in the book. I know her big objection was "not here" and not that she didn't want to do it at all, but consent is meaningless if you get to pick and choose which objections are valid or not.

[philstar22]

I agree that it was questionable. I personally think there was ultimately consent, but it can easily be read both ways. Not on the show, though. There was never even a single thing that could possibly suggest consent. Only her continuing to say no and him ignoring it.

That's my problem. Which, come to think of it, is the same problem I have with the first Dany/Drogo sex scene, though for different reasons. In both cases they take a scene that is more nuanced (in the books, the Dany/Drogo scene is clearly rape because she's too young to consent and because she doesn't even realize she can say know, but the fact that Drogo actually asked and she said yes makes the scene more interestingly nuanced than the show's version).

Basically, the show took the complications out of the scenes and made a scene that is clearly rape. In this case, though, they refuse to acknowledge that it is rape which makes it a whole lot worse.

[sarillia]

In some ways I prefer the less nuanced show versions of both those things just because I find the arguments about how it was perfectly consensual in the books really disturbing and frustrating. Just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I've seen it a lot. There are still people arguing that it's not rape in the show, but there are fewer people on their side.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, GRRM posted in his blog that it was consensual in the book. Her concern was the time and place, but she did want him.