[ SECRET POST #2737 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2737 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 041 secrets from Secret Submission Post #391.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

But Kili dies before the end of the Hobbit and before their 'relationship' will ever be known or make an impact anywhere. It's not really a big deal, IMO. Elves and Dwarves are not hive minds, so Elf/Dwarf society at large =/= all elves and dwarves ever born ever.

[(Anonymous)]

I see where you're going here but I have to disagree. Part of this is not in-universe. Having Kili/Tauriel in The Hobbit can undermine Legolas/Gimli to the movie-going public who have not read the books. There's only so much time devoted to relationships of any sort among the characters. I felt the Legolas/Gimli relationship was a bit shortchanged in LOTR. To have two Elf/Dwarf relationships in the movies might make it seem more common for these friendships than is the truth, which doesn't make Legolas and Gimli all that special.

But in-universe, Tolkien goes to such pains to develop Gimli and Legolas' friendship and to point out how unusual and wonderful it is. To some degree, it kind of is an entire race issue. Sure, maybe there were some random no-name dwarves and elves who found friendship but Kili is not a random dwarf -- he is a prince. If you want to make the argument that his desires were suppressed in the written history, fine, but now you're getting into unnecessary speculation that didn't need to exist if the friendship or romance between them had not been pushed into the new movies.

And, this just adds to the Mary-Sue qualities of Tauriel -- she's better than all the other elves for seeing dwarves sympathetically. Not to mention that there's talk that she is somehow going to be a catalyst for Legolas' views on Dwarves later on, which takes away from him overcoming his prejudices on his own. For those who found the Legolas and Gimli relationship to be very moving, it is disappointing to see what the movies have done.

[(Anonymous)]

+1000, perfectly said!

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think Legolas seeing the pain that predjudice causes takes anything way from this overcoming his own. It's a pretty common for people to be able to sympathise with the other, when the other becomes, "my friend's boyfriend," for example. And it would just be the germ of an idea that rests in him till he meets Gimli.

[(Anonymous)]

It takes away from Gimli's role though. Their friendship is a lot more powerful if Gimli is the one who's solely responsible for changing Legolas' minds about Dwarves, which is part of the appeal and greatness of their relationship. They changed each other's minds. Tauriel's influence (or God forbid some deathbed speech about acceptance where she makes him promise to be open to dwarven friendship in the future) making Legolas more open to the idea of Dwarves puts emphasis on her and her role in Legolas' life. But there's no need to give some reason why Legolas is willing to be friends with Gimli -- Gimli is worthy of friendship on his own terms and he proves that. Just being himself is good enough.

If Tauriel places a "germ" in Legolas, then that makes her the first Silvan elf to see dwarves as worthy of friendship, which undermines Legolas' specialness in being able to see Gimli for what he's worth. She's taking Legolas' place in the canon, making Legolas simply a follower of her example instead of someone who's the example themselves.

(I'm the one you replied to but I'm actually not the original poster FYI.)

[(Anonymous)]

I love you.

[truxillogical]

Actually, now that I think about it, Legolas's proximity to them is one more reason I like Kili/Tauriel less when I think about it in relation to Legolas and Gimli.

Originally, we have Legolas, who probably had minimal, if any, contact with the dwarves (I'm guessing he would've at least been at the Battle of Five Armies, probably). All he knows is that they're awful. And then, with no foundation other than that to build on, he grows to respect and love Gimli. But now he sees one of his closest friends befriend a dwarf. Like they're people! And he may not be happy about it, but it's sort of putting a seed that didn't need to be put there.

Of course, you can take the line of thought that he'll blame Kili for (presumably) losing his best friend, or for taking the woman he cared for away from him, one way or another, and *that's* part of the hatred for dwarves he has to overcome, but...

Eh, I just liked it better when Legolas had very little personal stake in the dwarves beyond general dislike.

Tauriel and Kili are still cute as buttons, though.

[(Anonymous)]

NGL, I think the more serious issue around Legolas and Gimli's relationship in the films is that it was so shortchanged in LOTR, rather than Tauriel and Kili stealing their spotlight.

Whatever happens with Tauriel is going to "explain" why Legolas "really hates" dwarves in LOTR. So if she does influence his views on dwarves, it sounds like it's going to be negatively, not positively, and Legolas still has to overcome his prejudices. Her more positive influence on his storyline/characgter seems to be to set up why he joins the Fellowship.

[(Anonymous)]

But for all we know, "a catalyst for Legolas' views on Dwarves later" could just mean Tauriel's deal further confirms and solidifies Legolas' prejudices.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're right. Boyens has already said that the love triangle was added to explain why Legolas "really hates" dwarves in LOTR.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is just as bad. Legolas doesn't need a special reason not to like dwarves (or to join the Fellowship). They don't need to explain that any more than they need to explain that he's willing to like dwarves because she did. I've been really unhappy with what they're doing to his character. He's a fairly merry character in the book. His prejudices are institutional, not specific -- the same for Gimli. He's coming off as a dick.

I'm much more interested in the narrative of Legolas and Gimli finding that if you just talk with the person you have a racial prejudice against, you realize they're not what you thought. I feel like if he "hates" dwarves because of Tauriel, then that's not looking at that prejudice anymore, not exactly. It's him overcoming the irritation misplaced anger from the loss of his friend/love-interest. He's just using dwarves as a scapegoat for his loss then. It's more interesting if he's just someone who's never had to deal with dwarves before and had certain opinions about them anyway, but once he actually meets Gimli, he realizes he's wrong. That was the dynamic of Legolas and Gimli in the book; that's the dynamic I wish they'd kept.

(And Tauriel's still an influence on him (negative or positive) that I don't agree with at all. It still smacks of Mary-Sueism, though this isn't what specifically undermines the Gimli/Legolas friendship -- it just irritates me personally. There's no reason that Legolas needs any motivation at all for what he does/what happens in LOTR. It's prequel-itis at its worse.)

[(Anonymous)]

+10000000000000000000 to the first two paragraphs (don't have an opinion on the third.)

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I'm not happy with it either - I don't think there's enough of Legolas in LOTR to justify the somersaults The Hobbit trilogy is doing to explain how he ends up in the Fellowship and why he "really hates" dwarves. imo, Legolas is far more anti-dwarf in DOS, where he says he'd find it a "pleasure" to kill Thorin. His "hatred" of dwarves in LOTR is limited to one mildly snarky line and a couple of displeased looks.

The suggestion that Tauriel's end is going to be all about setting up Legolas' entry into LOTR is annoying. Not only is it unneeded, but if Tauriel dies to motivate Legolas, they're in the unfortunate position of having invented a female character to address a lack of women in the story and then killed her off to further a male character's character arc.

And, okay, let's say that the sole purpose of the love triangle was to explain why Legolas "really hates" dwarves. So where's Gimli's love triangle to explain why he hates elves in LOTR? After all, he was far more anti-elf than Legolas was anti-dwarf... And why aren't they explaining Thranduil's prejudices?

I do like Kili/Tauriel, though I think that the writing for it was pretty bad (that healing scene should have been rewritten and re-shot at the least) and I wish they hadn't dragged Legolas into it, suggesting that it would set up Legolas' entry into LOTR. I don't think it really undermines Legolas and Gimli's relationship in the films since it was given very little screentime and always downplayed to focus on their relationship with Aragorn. I've been wondering whether Kili/Tauriel is meant to stand in in some way for Gimli and Legolas' friendship because the latter was almost entirely ignored in the films.

[(Anonymous)]

yes, this!