Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2014-07-07 06:41 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2014-07-07 06:41 pm
[ SECRET POST #2743 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2743 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 077 secrets from Secret Submission Post #392.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-07 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-07 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)I love the PT films because I think, for all the awkward dialogue and (sometimes) unlikability of the characters, that the situation feels very real to me. The PT seems to reflect what we actually ARE -- our faulty political system, our petty squabbling, our endless bureaucracy, our whining self-indulgence. While the OT is more of an ideal -- it's what we WISH we were like -- badass rogues, wise mentors, great heroes, etc.
As an example, one thing I love about the PT is the Jedi Order because they're kind of dicks, but they're still on the good side -- and I think that very much reflects the real world. They're elitist, cloistered monks who serve a gridlock government…but they want what's best for people and they're willing to fight on the front lines for it. Then you have mavericks like Qui-Gon Jinn who go out and follow the will of the Force, regardless of what the Jedi Order tells him (and it even costs him a seat on the Council according to Obi-Wan…)
Or there's characters like Padmé -- she's beautiful, intelligent, hard-working, etc. -- and she's also quite self-righteous and convinced that she has to take the burden of the world on her shoulders -- which is her downfall. Her relationship with Anakin is really where you see this -- I love watching them together because it seems clear to me that Padmé wants to "save" him. And I think it works really great at showing why the "good girls want bad boys" cliché is so full of crap. Because Padmé can't fix Anakin on her own, his troubles go to deep. And her determination to do so is what ends up causing her downfall.
Or Anakin. He's a bit of an annoying little shit. And yet, it's perfectly clear to me WHY he is this way. He was separated from his mother at an early age, lost the father figure he needed (Qui-Gon) and was sent with Obi-Wan into an Order that didn't believe in him with Palpatine whispering in his ear of his greatness. So he becomes an arrogant little shithead. But at the same time, he's absolutely TERRIFIED of losing those he loves -- his mother and Padmé -- because he's been so emotionally repressed and because he has so few people to hold onto and such a tenuous support system. And I think his need for control and his unwillingness to change is really well and subtly developed from his origins as a slave.
When I contrast that to the OT -- with Han and Leia barely having any arcs (Leia being all LOL to Darth Vader being her dad and Alderaan's destruction) -- the only OT character I really give two figs about is Luke. And that's largely because he has a dynamic character arc going from a naive farm boy to an impatient soldier to a the very best of the Jedi -- which he achieves through both listening to and rejecting the old masters.
I could go on, but that's just my train of thought and this seems to be getting pretty long.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 12:11 am (UTC)(link)Everything you're saying about Padme, for instance, is a really interesting character interpretation. But the idea that she feels the need to save everything in the world, and that this is a character flaw, and that this is why she's so fascinated with Anakin doesn't really enter into the scripted performance that's there. I can see the plausibility of the Anakin storyline, or the idea of Qui-Gon being a maverick-y rebel - but neither of the characters are written well enough to wholly support those ideas, unfortunately.
Similarly, with the political storylines - I think what you're talking about is probably what Lucas was aiming for, but in terms of the action on the screen, it seems to either be nonexistent, or to be completely overdone and obvious to the point of stupidity. I wish it was like you describe (and obviously I am completely in favor of you enjoying it however you want, and if you have more thoughts to lay out, feel free to do so because it's really interesting).
But to me, I'd rather have characters who don't have arcs but who are at least well and clearly defined in terms of their actions on screen, and I think that's what you get in the original films.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 01:30 am (UTC)(link)Because I thought that Padmé's savior complex was really heavily emphasized. Planet in danger? Better personally lead the charge to retake it even if she dies. Doesn't want to stay in politics but is asked? Welp, guess she'd better be Senator. Obi-Wan's in danger? Better personally go to Geonosis and save him. Anakin wants to reveal their marriage? Nope, Anakin can't give up being a Jedi for her.
She sees a problem and so she thinks it's her job to fix it. I don't think it's a coincidence, for example, that after she tells Anakin they can't be together and he commits horrific acts following his mother's death that she can finally allow herself to be with him.
For Qui-Gon, again, I'm a bit at a loss to understand how you don't see him as a maverick. Obi-Wan is set up throughout the entire film as an extension of the Jedi Council -- very focused on the mission, doing only what he is told, staying in his place. Whereas Qui-Gon is the one to bring Jar Jar along (who will be key in providing information for Padmé to free her planet) and finding and training Anakin (who will destroy the Sith in Episode VI). He is consistently set opposed to the Jedi Council throughout the film.
I think, if I may, that the problem is that you're focused very much on the WRITING and not the visuals. Lucas is a highly, highly visual and symbolic director. The best example I can think of is Anakin and Padmé's conversation in AOTC in front of the fireplace (where she wears the black dress). The dialogue is extremely obvious -- Anakin mentions he can't breathe, Padmé says they'd be living a lie, Anakin says it would destroy them -- but everything about the visuals there is a stupendous foreshadowing of their doom. The fires for Mustafar. Padmé's corseted dress that restricts her breathing. The black choker around her neck that mimics how Anakin's hand will tighten around her throat. All that is there showing us that they are well aware of what COULD happen and that this will, indeed, come to pass.
Or look at their wedding -- with Padmé, dressed in virginal white, grasping Anakin's metal skeletal hand. She's signing herself to her death with that kiss.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 02:22 am (UTC)(link)From what you're saying, I'm thinking that if you watch the movies on mute and just play John Williams in the background, you'd actually have a tolerable set of films.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 02:27 am (UTC)(link)Don't know if that's really helping to improve anyone's impression of the films, but I think there's a lot more to the PT than most people give credit.
Like the Anakin and Palpatine conversation at the opera -- the visuals, the SUBTEXT, the IMPLICATIONS, Ian McDiarmid's performance -- I fucking LOVE that scene.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 04:59 am (UTC)(link)I agree that it's a very plausible interpretation, and I'm even prepared to acknowledge that might have been what George Lucas was going for - but I just don't think it was ever really executed on screen. When I watch the movies, I usually just see her kind of going and doing those things. Why? Because that's what the plot is telling her to do. That's what I see on screen.
Similarly, with Qui Gon and Obi Wan, I agree that they take on those roles in the film. But there's never a sense for me that the actions they take that place them in those roles are, really, in any way related to their characters. I never really got a sense of who Qui-Gon is and what it means that he's a maverick and why he's a maverick and what that means for him, and how it results in the specific actions he takes. You do, somewhat, get a sense of that for Obi Wan, but mostly because Ewan MacGregor is a phenomenal actor and because he manages to stick around till Revenge of the Sith, which is the only prequel movie that's actually kind of decent. The thing is that it's not actually set up that way. It just kinda... happens that way.
And I don't think the argument about Lucas being a visual director holds up. Like, it's fine to tell the story through visuals, but that can't be an excuse for actively bad or non-existent writing. And the writing in the prequels, especially the first two, is so bad to me that it's hard to see what amount of visual storytelling could save it. The dialogue is frequently clunky and bad, and there's just no attention paid to character in a real sense. Neither through actions nor speech. It's just missing. Even in the examples you're giving of the scene with Anakin and Padme there - there's certainly a symbolic grammar of filmmaking present there and in the rest of the prequels, but that can't make up for the fact that who these characters are, how their being manifests itself in action, or what their interaction is - none of these things are well-defined at all. These are two different things, conceptually. No matter how well the framing of the shots and the mise en scene mirrors the situation of the characters, that's not the same as character work.
Moreover, I'm not sure that the claim that Lucas is a visual director really holds up, because Lucas was able to create clean, distinct, meaningful characters whose identity was integrally linked to their actions and informed the plots in the original Star Wars movies. They might not have been deep characters, they might have been a little cliched, they might not have had meaningful character development - but he's made movies with characters who play on screen through being well-written. It doesn't have to be deep or realistic character work. It just has to be something that's visible and that visibly informs the plot - something that shows up on screen. He did it in the original Star Wars movies. He did it in American Graffiti. Hell, he and Spielberg did it in the Indiana Jones movies. So it's clearly something that's possible for him as a filmmaker, and I can't help but think that the prequels would have been immeasurably improved if that had also happened in the prequels. And it doesn't.
To some extent, I think this is a difference of taste - I probably care more about writing than about visual language and mise en scene, we probably have very different ideas about what movies should look like, you seem to care more about character DEVELOPMENT as such than I do, etc. But I do think that the flaws in the writing of the prequel are really severe and, at the end of the day, they're real, serious problems for the success of the prequels as movies.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)For Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, for example, one of the biggest examples I can think of showing that Qui-Gon is a maverick is when Obi-Wan laments to him that if he would just follow the rules he would already be on the Council -- to which Qui-Gon replies that he will do what he must and Obi-Wan still has much to learn. Later on, due to a disagreement about Anakin, Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon -- but not because he's been persuaded by his way of thinking or thinks he made a mistake -- but because it's "not his place" to disagree with his Master. This really, I think, helps to set up Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's roles in the story and why Anakin's training goes so awry -- because Anakin is an unusual case that was handed to a very "traditional" Jedi (Obi-Wan) to whom he couldn't connect to as well as Qui-Gon.
As for the dialogue, I honestly don't think it's that bad. It doesn't have the smoothness of finesse of better directors, but I think it fits the environment very well. The awkwardness and stiff formality fits the PT setting in much the same way that the gung-ho attitude fits the OT.
And, although I agree that the OT characters are clean and distinct, they are also much more archetypal than the PT characters. People are much more comfortable with them as a result of that because they feel familiar. But I wouldn't say this means that they are better written necessarily. Same with Indiana Jones. I think the PT, in contrast, has characters that are much more difficult to describe because they don't fit into neat little boxes -- but I don't think that's a bad thing. In fact, to me, that's part of what makes them superior.
And I think there's a great deal of character development -- Obi-Wan going from wet behind the ears padawan to strict master to a Jedi who has loosened up and is more comfortable in his skin. Anakin going from a cheerful (though still somewhat cynical) little boy to an arrogant, displeased teenager, to a neurotic, fearful adult trying to do good. Watching Padmé slip away as her influence wanes with Palpatine's rise. Compare that to the OT where Han Solo basically only has a character arc in ANH -- going from selfish rogue to hero. Or Leia, who is not developed in the slightest (her reactions to Alderaan's destruction and the revelation of Vader as her father are completely glossed over).
I watched the PT first, so maybe I'm biased, but I think people look at them too much through the lens of the OT. And, if that's the case, then I can see how they fall short because they aren't TRYING to be the OT. They're trying to complement and subvert much of the OT. On their own, though, I consider them superior films.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)I mean, this is subjective, I can't prove you wrong. And there are times where it makes sense for it to be awkward and stilted. There are moments in the Anakin and Padme relationship where it would be a really logical way to play that relationship to have them be awkward with each other. But there are so many other times when the dialogue is stilted when it doesn't make sense, and where it doesn't seem to come from any logic of the situation, that I just can't read it that way. The Anakin and Padme relationship almost always plays at least somewhat stilted, as does the film's dialogue in general.
RE: characters - I'm fine with characters not fitting into neat little boxes, the problem is when you have characters who just aren't there at all, or who are only there occasionally, which is how I see the PT characters. Character has to show up in the actions and attitudes of the characters on screen, not just in their role in the plot.
Thanks for writing all this though, even if I disagree with you it's been an interesting conversation. Sorry if I've been repetitive and wordy.
Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 12:52 am (UTC)(link)Re: Don't feel bad -- I think the PT films are better than the OT
(Anonymous) 2014-07-08 01:38 am (UTC)(link)