fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2791 ]

[ SECRET POST #2791 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2791 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 058 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I assumed that's what you meant, too, I just disagree. ;) But, uh, I thought Snape was supposed to be perceived as a giant asshole who is sort of amusing? The pevensie flashback was supposed to be a big twist on everyone's expectations, as far as I could see. Or do you mean it the other way around, that you think she intended the flashback to absolve Snape of all blame and it didn't? I'm not sure what you mean, so this might be more useful if you articulated these problems and what you think the audience perception differs from the author intent.

Because...well, I think that type of thing is more of a disagreement over how much author intent actually matters to the books, and on what perceptions of author intent are objective or not. Most people never even try to objectively claim "the author clearly intended this!" because it's almost guaranteed to cause 500 people to pipe up with "uh what? I was 100% sure she intended this totally other thing" and 500 other people to pipe up with "IDK what she intended and I'm not going to pretend to know, but this totally other thing is what actually happened" and 500 more people to pipe with "Who gives a rat's ass? Can't we list all the possible alternate interpretations of what actually happened instead?"

IMO basing objective judgements (rather than personal opinions) on a single reader's claim to somehow objectively know what the author intent was is something that makes no sense. I personally feel that if you can't find it in the text, you can't back it up as an objective claim, it's a subjective feeling. Which is still a valid criticism, as it indicates a communication problem between author and reader.

It may partly be due to my special attitude towards the relationship between literature and authorial intent, but I also believe it's a textual thing. Like, I don't just get this feeling from nowhere, nor even from Rowling's interviews on the matter - I get it straight from the books.

Snape never ever struck me as someone who's supposed to be "a giant asshole who's sort of amusing". Not a single character of significance is amused by Snape, and none of the protagonists end up convinced he was a dick. I grant you, Harry's and Dumbledore's perspectives can be said to be skewed - but how is that not a subjective claim, not wishful thinking? Is there any confirmation in the text that either Dumbledore or Harry are all wrong about Snape? There's none. Does the (third-person omniscient) narrative mock Snape, treat him with contempt? No. On the contrary, in books six and seven he's a heroic and tragic - if controversial - figure. (how is the whole "but what about my soul?" arc isn't about Snape being good and noble?)

I do think the flashback was supposed to be a twist in the sense that it should've made Snape look better, too. But it ended up making him look worse.

Unless you want to suggest that the narrator is completely indifferent to the events of the books and the reader is not supposed to get any moral from the stories that are being recounted, I don't think you can argue that Snape was written as a bad person.

This
>I personally feel that if you can't find it in the text, you can't back it up as an objective claim, it's a subjective feeling. Which is still a valid criticism, as it indicates a communication problem between author and reader.
is a good point, though, and it kinda makes me feel better about my non-text-supported complaints.

Edited 2014-08-24 22:31 (UTC)

Er, sorry. I meant that in the first six books, he was supposed to be seen as a giant asshole (and amusing to the readers, not the characters. Except maybe Dumbledore in Book 3). Sorry if I made that unclear. What I meant was that I didn't think that the flashback/reveal was intended in any way to absolve Snape of all the shitty things he did during the actual run of the series (bullying Neville and Harry, trying to get Sirius kissed, etc) and make them okay. It was intended to introduce multiple layers and show that people (and things, and ideas, and societies) are not exactly what they appear at first, which is sort of a recurring theme in the books. And yes, he is treated with contempt at least once: when Dumbledore chews him out in the flashback for intending to only save Lily for his own selfish reasons and let James and Harry die. I think this sort of thing is still very subjective -- because no one ever says whether Snape's noble actions excuses his other shitty behavior or not, I suppose people could plausibly interpret Rowling's intent in either way, but I don't see why they WOULD interpret her intent in the "totally absolved!" way instead of the "multiple layers" way. Like, what's the point of doing that? Is there any compelling reason to lean towards that direction other than the reader's personal vibe? That part of the book was just...excessively rushed and vague, IMO.

re: your second comment. I feel obliged to point out it's still very possible and common for the "communication problem" to be partially on the reader's end (or even sometimes COMPLETELY on the reader's end, and not at all on the author's -- for example, that OP from a few days ago who thought the protagonist of "Remains of the Day" only made sense to him/her if he was an asexual with Aspergers. When the entire point of the book literally evaporates if you interpret it that way.) Not that I think the problems are on your end in this case, I just felt weirdly obliged to mention that I don't believe that batshit interpretations are fine because "but-but-but the author never actually said it wasn't, so nyaahhh!"

Edited 2014-08-24 23:33 (UTC)

(and I fell asleep.)

Oh, I didn't mean that it was supposed to absolve him. I just don't think that the "multiple layers" thing worked out. All it succeeded at was making Snape sound like an epic creep. The extent to which he appears to have been motivated by his obsession with Lily is... um. Which part of the flashback gives him any more dimensions than he previously had? His affection for Dumbledore? But this doesn't really come as much of a surprise.

The big reveal of the flashback is in the fact that Snape has worked for the good guys; none of what the scene has to say enhances the understanding of his character.

I know that's not what was meant to happen, of course. I am capable of interpreting Snape as a highly controversial character. But textually, the more plausible interpretation is that he remained an unapologetic bag of dicks till the very end.

(that was why I was a bit confused re:your take on Snape. The seventh book didn't actually change much — it was only the way the narrative treated Snape that changed.)

Also, I think that one of the reasons people want to interpret this arc as an absolution is because of Harry and the epilogue. Some say that it was "corny" and "out of the blue", but I think it is a logical consequence of the authorial illusion that Snape is a good person more than he's a bad one. Which is what the flashback was supposed to and failed to show.

As regards your other point, that's true, of course. I'm not about to run around claiming my headcanons are as valid as the actual text. But the fact that not all issues that aren't fully textual aren't there is a good idea to acknowledge.

Haha yeah, I'm the last person to go around going "no headcanons eva!!!!" given how very, VERY frequently I headcanon motivations in places where none explicitly exist re: authorial intent (actually, I sometimes love it when authors don't explain stuff well enough, because it lets me make up plausible shit to fill the holes and I love doing that).

I totally agree with your take on the lack of any clear textual evidence that Snape is a good guy, I just think that this lack doesn't mean that "bag of dicks" is necessarily a more plausible interpretation than "controversial sorta good guy" because in my view, the text doesn't support either one more than the other -- all I see is a big empty gap where JKR glossed over things, which can be filled with a good range of different interpretations. I just go for "sorta good guy" because it's more satisfying and coherent -- it doesn't actually conflict with the text to assume that he may have started out motivated solely by his creepy Lily obsession but acquired a somewhat more mature and less selfish understanding over the years, and if it doesn't conflict, then I say, well, why not?

It doesn't directly contradict the text, no. But the Patronus scene strongly suggests that his motivation for protecting Harry, at least, was his feelings for Lily first and everything else second. Additionally, she's the very last thing he remembers in his life — and that with Harry right in front of him; because of Harry, too. It's actually pretty scary how he gives no fucks about Harry himself.

Taking this into account, I can't agree that the two interpretations are equally valid. One is supported by clear textual evidence, the other is just a way to try and make the existing text more coherent.

Besides, his lack of motivation is by no means the only problem. He freely indulges in bullying eleven-year-olds
; he tries to get an innocent man killed. IMO there's a point where a controversial character becomes simply unsalvageable, and, however much good deeds are piled up in the subsequent narrative, they make nothing better.

Now, if the idea were to make Snape an essentially bad person with something good in them, I'd declare his arc a success. As it is, the exact opposite is the case.

But I don't think that he necessarily gives no fucks about Harry himself just because his last thought was about Lily, or that just because Lily was his biggest motivation, that's his ONLY motivation. People are capable of entertaining more than one idea at a time, without them being the same priority. Sorry, but I really don't think your interpretation is any more supported by "clear textual evidence" any more than mine is.

But yeah, IA that he's more bad than good, re: your examples. I don't think it's so black-and-white though. Just because a guy is more bad than good doesn't devalue the good, it's not like it gets neatly separated into "bad" and "good" and gets plopped on a scale and balanced out or something.

I'm afraid don't quite understand what you mean when you say "unsalvageable" though. Unsalvageable as what? Do you mean "unsalvageable" as in incapable of perfectly redeeming himself as a total good guy? Becoming likable? I'd agree with that, but I don't understand what "unsalvageable as a character" means.

(btw, I don't think I've EVER been on this side of an argument about Snape before! I'm always the one pointing out to people how his dickery in the series doesn't have any good ulterior motives or justifications, it's just him being a dick. A first for me!)

But the problem IS that it's his primary motivation, not that he has no other motivations besides it. That was my view - I guess I miscommunicated it by saying that he "gives no fucks", while in fact I should've said something along the lines of "gives fewer fucks about Harry than he does about (dead) Lily".

I also have issues with the way Snape's obsession with Lily is almost written as a good thing. Considering the facts that the book is not narrated from an objective viewpoint and that one of the -morals- seems to be "yay everyone should marry their childhood sweetheart", I'm pretty uncomfortable with how no one notices that Snape's being skeevy in this regard. (barring Dumbledore, who, however, has no problems with Snape's obsession as such - it's only the fact that it's Snape's only motive for coming to him that disgusts Dumbledore.)

Yeah, I can agree with you about that -
> Just because a guy is more bad than good doesn't devalue the good, it's not like it gets neatly separated into "bad" and "good" and gets plopped on a scale and balanced out or something.

I guess I've always had difficulty seeing the good in bad characters. My standards for judging fictional characters are the same as for judging real people, and it's hard to be objective.

I've thought about this discussion and I think I can say that I no longer consider Snape's arc a spectacular failure on Rowling's part - most of the problems with his characterization are, as you said, due to the "gaps", i.e. omissions or lack of explanation - but I still believe the issues with his characterization are kinda obvious. They're not an insurmountable obstacle to someone who wants to read Snape the way Rowling (textually) seems to want him to be, but they definitely make it impossible for me to say that she's really very good at characterization. She's... all right? Like, I'm ready to agree I can't prove she's shitty.

(re:"unsalvageable", that's my ESLness showing. I meant "irredeemable". Irredeemable "controversial" characters happen to be a big pet peeve of mine, so I might've been biased in this regard, too).

I've never been on this side of the debate, either! I actually like Snape. He's one of my favourite characters and I love to friend-ship him with just about everyone *shrugs shoulders*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2791 ]

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions

Re: Fandom Confessions