fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2795 ]

[ SECRET POST #2795 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2795 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Law & Order: Criminal Intent]

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03.

[Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers]

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04.

[Jeeves and Wooster]

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05.

[Yahtzee/Zero Punctuation]

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06.

[Markiplier]

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07.

[Jackie Chan Adventures]

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08.

[The Parent Trap]

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09.

[Alexander]

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10.

[Starsky and Hutch]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 012 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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03. http://i.imgur.com/VwcEDaz.jpg
[Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to watch the pretty dancing.

well they are a product of their time

it's okay to acknowledge that and enjoy them

It's not that you're not clever or educated enough, it's that you have different priorities. There's nothing inherently wrong with just watching the movies for the dancing.

I don't really remember the films well enough to say whether or not that's an accurate charge. But I do think, even if they are, there's nothing wrong with thinking the dancing is pretty. Go ahead and watch it. The dancing is pretty. That's a fact.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with not wanting to watch it, either, of course.

I'm all for everyone drawing the line wherever they are personally comfortable with and not letting people bully them into disliking something or watching something they don't want to.

That said, I don't understand people who look at it like it's a dichotomy of "irredeemably *-ist" vs. "has no problems".

Also, I love the pretty dancing too.

Uh, old films are not everyone's cup of tea. But I sort of hate the kind of people who insist on holding decades-old films to the same standards as if they were made today. Yes, sometimes they will be racist, or misogynist, or whatever to modern eyes. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy them for what they are.

And enjoying the dance, music and choreography is a perfectly valid reason. That being said, you can't force someone to like something - you can just question their taste.

Honestly, I'm annoyed by both the blanket dismissal of these movies and the justifications. I love these movies but I don't make any excuses for the problems with them. There were people at the time who understood the problems and I'd like to acknowledge them instead of pretending that no one in the past knew any better.

But I also think a lot of these movies are more progressive than people give them credit for. I'm constantly giving my "history is not a straight line of progress where the further back you go, the worse off everyone is" speech.

Yes, I totally agree on some films being more progressive that people give them credit for! Or, having really interesting subtext that implies the makers want to convey some things but can't do so outright.

And it's a pity because sometimes I see people focus on one tings that bothers them, while they dismiss the 8 thing the movie DID do right.

(no subject)

sarillia - 2014-08-28 23:44 (UTC) - Expand

Going off of memory ... There are thirteen films where they teamed. There may have been a black face scene in one of them. The male/female dynamics were typical of the romantic and or slapstick comedies of their day. As for the rest? People's attitudes were different then. It's okay.

Enjoy the films for what they are ... Beautiful, and don't let other people ruin your enjoyment of them.

Yes, there's one blackface scene (in Swing Time), which is a little cringeworthy, but was apparently Fred Astaire's tribute to a black dancer who had influenced his style, so there was no mean-spiritedness behind it.

I agree with your opinion. I love Fred Astaire's movies so, so much. The man was a genius with choreography and Ginger Rogers was a fine partner for him.

I think you missed the US memo that any kind of darkening your face for any intent, even if it's because you're highly admirative of a dark-skinned character and want to look like them or pay them a tribute, is OMG HORRENDOUS AND RACIST BECAUSE BLACK-FACE ONCE EXISTED.

If they haven't watched any of their film how does your friend know that the films are homophobic, etc.?

Sexist I get, but homophobic?

I'm the anon from upthread who mentioned 13 films. I can't think of anything especially homophobic, except for a lack of overtly gay couples. Which given the Hayes Commission, is hardly a surprise.

As with other movies of the time, effeminate character actors were used for comic relief, particularly Eric Blore and Franklin Pangborne.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-29 13:15 (UTC) - Expand

Some people have a hard time accepting that people are generally products of their environment. The kind who get up in arms if you call, say, Florence Nightingale a racist. She was. All the good she did won't change that. Most everybody in her social milieu was back then. Go back far enough, it's a description more than a condemnation. Obviously racism etc still wasn't right back then, but society had yet to learn better and 'heroes' are still human.

So enjoy the perfect dancing done by two imperfect people.

This secret suddenly made me realize that I've only seen about one Astaire/Rogers film and that was about seven years ago. I need to rectify this immediately.

Yes, you absolutely should! I recommend Swing Time (my personal favorite) and Top Hat. The Gay Divorcee is really good as well.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-29 02:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-29 10:29 (UTC) - Expand

Their films are amazing. It's her loss, tbh.

It seems to me to be a waste of energy to get upset about problematic elements in old movies. Yes, there are things in there that can make a modern viewer cringe, but unless you find a TARDIS, there is absolutely nothing you can do about them. Getting angry won't erase them from existence.

That said, it's completely your friends prerogative not to watch these old movies if they don't want to (though, I can't imagine they could fairly judge them without ever seeing them). But they shouldn't try to shame you for enjoying them.

I mean, not everyone has to like old movies, even putting aside the sexism and etc

I find it strange that you care so much if your friend will or won't watch what you happen to like

Assuming this person's friend is like the friend I have of the same stripe, it's probably not that the person won't watch. It's probably more than if they see the movies in your house, or if you mention that you're going to watch one, or have one on if they come over to visit, then they feel the need to tell you, repeatedly and at length, how terrible the movies are. It really saps the enjoyment out of a thing when you have to hide your DVDs before you invite a person over.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2014-08-29 14:56 (UTC) - Expand

I wish I could turn off the "UGH SEXISM" portion of my brain, because it spoils many things that I otherwise like. But I haven't been able to figure out how to turn it off. So if I want to watch the whole movie and not just skip to the pretty dancing scenes, I have to accept a certain amount of stewing.

I don't think they're any more sexist and homophobic than other films of the time, and less so in some ways. It was during a period where censors were quite strict, which had the unintented consequence of making people write stronger female characters, because the blokes couldn't just snog them and get it over with. Ginger's characters are usually pretty awesome and rather feminist. I assume your friend is referring to the effeminate male type that's in most of the films, which is kind of annoying, but then, works like The Celluloid Closet actually argue that that stock character was a way of having queer visibility when any other kind was impossible.

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