[ SECRET POST #2804 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2804 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


__________________________________________________



02.


__________________________________________________



03.


__________________________________________________



04.


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.


__________________________________________________



09.


__________________________________________________



10.











Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #401.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - unrelated .gifs ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: T'hy'la

[(Anonymous)]

I thought the inclusion of "lover" was... I don't know if "joke" is the right word, but a sort of call-out/meta explanation for why people might think they were lovers. Like, "If people in-universe think they're a couple, it's just because they're miss-translating this Vulcan word... and what I'm trying to say here is that people IRL who ship them also are mistaken about the nature of their relationship."

At least, that's what I thought when I first read the novelization.

Re: T'hy'la

[(Anonymous)]

I just find that explanation hard to believe with how they act and how their relationship is described. Their relationship in the text is said:

" But it still felt painful to be reminded so powerfully and unexpectedly of his friendship and affection for Spock—theirs had been the touching of two minds which the old poets of Spock’s home planet had proclaimed as superior even to the wild physical love which affected Vulcans every seventh year during pon farr. However, Spock’s new demeanor warned Kirk to stay clear of personal considerations for the moment."

It's things like that -- the mention of affections and the comparisons to pon farr along with how they seem so…broken…when they're apart -- it makes it really hard to believe that Roddenberry is joking about it.

And as Spock is about to go through kolinahr he thinks:

"Jim! Good-bye my . . . my t’hy’la. This is the last time I will permit myself to think of you or even your name again."

Which I just can't see as a joke. Or the passage when they meet:

"There was much to be put out of his mind. Why was it difficult to forget Chekov’s astonished delight which greeted him at the command airlock when he boarded? And on the bridge—Kirk! The mere name made Spock groan inwardly as he remembered what it had cost him to turn away from that welcome. T’hy’la! And there had been McCoy, so humanly human—and, yes, of course, Chapel with her bizarre and impossible fantasies of one day pleasuring him. Sulu the romanticist, Uhura of the lovely star songs . . ."

I mean…if that is his intention…he's sending out REALLY mixed messages, in my opinion.

Re: T'hy'la

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, laughing at the fact that this was my security question for this post:

If a person is called James, what is their name?

How appropriate! :D

Re: T'hy'la

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

Uh...no. Believe it or not, men are perfectly capable of wanting to be able to express such deep feelings for their friends. In fact, according to multiple men I've talked to, one of the reasons male writers and readers/viewers tend to be so excessively obsessed with epic male friendships is because they're not allowed to really show deep affection for their friends IRL.

I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with reading them as romantic. I myself like Kirk/Spock slash a whole lot. But the idea that they MUST be romantic because of how deeply affected they were by their separation or how strong their feelings are toward each other, and that means Roddenberry MUST be purposely sending out signals because he'd never let them think of each other so powerfully if they weren't romantically in love is bullshit. All it really shows is that he thought (and/or he thought that Vulcans thought) that "friend" and "brother" is emotionally as strong as "lover."

Of course, he may have been sending signals, there's nothing there to suggest that nope, he definitely wasn't sending signals -- those passages can certainly be read as expressing romantic feelings. But saying that Roddenberry had to "know" that having these kind of feelings is somehow Not Okay If You Don't Want To Fuck Each Other to the point of "sending mixed messages" is deeply offensive to me and to many others who are not in any way convinced by the mainstream western line that deep and expressive feelings for people automatically implies romantic attraction.

Re: T'hy'la

[(Anonymous)]

Err…yes. I'm aware of that. But I just think it's odd to suggest that Roddenberry was treating t'hy'la as a joke given the seriousness he uses in the text.

I'm not saying they MUST be romantic. I'm saying that I think Roddenberry included t'hy'la to show that lover is a valid (a valid, not the only) interpretation of their relationship in canon. That you can see them as friends or brothers or lovers or all three. And the editor's note gave himself an "out" which was kind of necessary given the climate at the time.

I'm not saying that t'hy'la is saying YES THEY'RE 100% CANON AND YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS. I think it's saying "This interpretation of their relationship is perfectly legitimate and equal to seeing them as friends or brothers." That there's nothing wrong with viewing them that way and if you don't want to you don't have to but if you want to, you CAN.

I wasn't suggesting that Roddenberry KNOWS that those passages were romantic, just that with the seriousness he treats their relationship with, I can't imagine him using anything in those passages as a JOKE.