[ SECRET POST #341 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #341 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Uhhh, made one not!fandom that shouldn't have been there. Fixed now! Uhhhh sorry 46.

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 100 secrets from Secret Submission Post #049.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] too big.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Thursday, December 13th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I would disagree with you on that. See, for me, ultimately, Ashe as a character is defined by her role in society (that of princess and widow) as opposed to what she does. And, in fact, through the course of the game, she is following and fulfilling both those roles.

Now, I won't say she's not well-developed--the women in XII are far better developed than in any past game, in my opinion--because she is, but she's still being developed out of the same plucky princess stereotype as used in the past, just as Penelo plays the plucky lowlife/thief and Fran plays the strong female warrior. You can pick these roles out of any and all the games, for the men and women alike, I just find it tends to be more obvious for the women because Japan has such a habit of locking onto women as being weak.

Which, related, I think is another aspect of Ashe that leads back into her stereotype, again, because she plays the role of princess. Ultimately, it's not her actions that start or stop anything, it's Larsa and bur Omisace, Reddas and the Sun-Cryst, even Vaan (though I hate to say it) and the Dawn Shard.

Of the women in XII, I actually find Ashe to be the weakest, though it's a tossup between her and Penelo, as in the end, they are both defined by the men that influence them. (Ashe is defined in the context of princess and widow, thus defining her by her father and her late husband. Penelo is defined in the context of plucky lowlife and kidnappee, thus defining her by Vaan, the (male) bangaa, and Larsa--her rescuer. That's not to say Fran can't be defined by her status as Balthier's partner/potential lover, I just find her status as outcast and sky pirate (independent of Balthier's status as such) to be a little more distinct.)

Again, they're not bad characters, the women or the men, but they are all built, as is usual, out of a certain set of fantasy (not Final Fantasy, but fantasy) sterotypes, and being a Japanese game, built out of Japanese culture, it follows that the women would take the biggest beating.

(Having not played Tactics, though, nor V in an awfully long time, I can't speak to those. It's also clearer if I just stick to one for now. XD)

[powercorrupts.livejournal.com]

I didn't really ever peg Ashe for "plucky," myself? And perhaps that's where my argument comes in. The difference I see between Ashe and a lot of the FF heroines I'd peg like that is the inherent difference in their actions. Rinoa, for instance, gets herself and the party into trouble by trying to do the right thing, or the thing that she thinks will help those she cares about.

Ashe gets her party into trouble because she tries to do something to hurt her enemies, which while usually the same in effect, is not the same in motivation. For only brief moments of the game does Ashe really treat the rest of her party with the sort of affection that is typical of a FF heroine - for some portion of the game, she seems to regard them more them as tolerable and necessary to her goals than the travelling partners she's always wanted. Her goals were also heavily revenge oriented.

Perhaps we really just see the character in a complete different way, but were I to compare Ashe to any other FF character, it would be Cloud, not any other FF heroine. She spents a large portion of the game alienating or not being totally forthcoming with her party, is more interested in getting revenge and her personal goals accomplished than the overall good of everyone for most o the game, and leads the party into a trap at least once because of her own single-mindedness.

I personally find Ashe very likeable, but I don't think she's the sort of moral bastion or party morale booster that most of the other heroines are by any means.

[wodhaund.livejournal.com]

Well, I call her 'plucky' less in the 'cute, cheerful' sense and more the 'ballsy' sense, so I don't disagree with your evaluation of her. (Sorry, should have been more clear with my definition.)

I will definitely agree that she's oriented to her own goals. In fact, I find her, for the most part, to be an incredibly selfish person (and thus, not the kind of person I'd want leading me in any way, shape or form, yikes.), fully willing to sacrifice those around her to the alter of her own immense pride (which we do actually see happen on a few occasions.). That said, I still see her as defined by the men in her life, as they are the root behind her revenge, which is another reason I place her in the 'plucky princess' archetype.

I find her very likable as a character for that reason, though, my god, if she were a real person, I think I'd slap her.

Am I making sense? I'm not making sense. I should go to bed.