fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2824 ]

[ SECRET POST #2824 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2824 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[John Oliver]

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05. [ns]

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10. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]

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11. [SPOILERS for Kick Ass 2]

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12. [SPOILERS for Haven]

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13. [SPOILERS for Spec Ops: The Line]

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14. [WARNING for rape]

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15. [WARNING for rape]

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16. [WARNING for rape]

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17. [WARNING for rape]

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18. [WARNING for self-harm]

[Kill la Kill]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #403.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I think that because Tara couldn't remember the fight and then slept with Willow, Willow had raped her physically because Tara never would have slept with her if she did remember the fight.

I've always kind of side-eyed that logic, because those people are assuming couples never get into fights and still want to have sex (or have make up sex). What Willow did was super skeevy, but mostly because Willow was using magic to wipe the board clean instead of going through what normal couples do - talk about it, stress, maybe yell more, then make up. Because while they were fighting about some pretty major things, it's clear that Tara and Willow still were together and loved each other. It's only when Tara finds out about the memory spell that she decides that - despite loving Willow - she has to leave.

EDIT: I'm talking about the first time. Tabula Rasa erased everyone's memory, and I don't think Willow and Tara slept together then? My memory is not great.

Edited 2014-09-26 23:19 (UTC)

I don't think it's about assuming couples never get into fights and still want to have sex. The point is that we don't know if Tara would have still wanted to have sex or not. Willow took that informed choice away from her.

Well, we don't know anything of what would have happened from the fight onwards because of the spell is all I'm trying to say. I'm just hesitant to call it rape when we don't know what the normal flow of their relationship would have been, including Tara's choices. I would definitely call it abusive though.

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs though. Fair enough.

Do you realize how dangerous that line of thinking is?

"Because we don't know if they would have sex after fights occasionally, we can't assume it's rape--even though the consent wasn't informed consent which is the clear definition of what rape is."

Well, since magic isn't a normal part of real life, I don't see the danger here. Because I was talking about a magical interruption of events preventing us from knowing what would have happened. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the thing about fiction - we can't go to the characters and ask what they feel, because we're limited to the acts and words they do in canon. We are limited to knowing Tara was angry about the abuse of magic and the memory spell itself, because that's what she expressed.

Don't put words into my mouth.

Well, then, because she didn't call it rape herself, I guess that suddenly makes it not rape! What a magic wand you have!

Okay, I'm pretty sure you're the same as the anon below. My point there is the same as it is here - crappy writing that doesn't spell it out as rape doesn't mean it's not rape. But Tara herself did not express that it was rape. Because this is fiction and because we cannot ask the characters what they feel, this is all we have to go on whether HER CHARACTER feels whether it's rape or not. That's not to say that it's not. But as far as we know based on what is written for her dialog and her actions, the character does not consider it rape.

Whether a character believes she has been raped and whether it is rape are two different things. I concede that this looks an awful lot like rape. I was only making the point that we cannot ask Tara her feelings on it because she is fictional. That is literally all I am saying.

But why did you need to make that point? Why does it matter that you make this point?

Because this is where the conversation led to. Because it's related to what the OP was saying about Willow being a positive portrayal (although, like others here, I disagree that because Willow is gay and Jewish and not a villain, it doesn't mean that Willow *can't* be a rapist). Because it's potentially important to Tara and Willow's developments as characters and in their relationship within the show, which again can be different from how viewers can see how those developments take shape.

As I recall it was after the events of Tabula Rasa that Tara moved out -- after the events of OMWF she'd given Wilow a chance to prove she could go without doing magic for - I think it was a week? Willow didn't even last that long.

Yeah, that's when she moved out. I don't think there was any sex in Tabula Rasa. A lot of my hesitance over calling it rape is from Tara's own reaction at the beginning of that episode - it's the magic abuse and memory spell she's angry about, not the sex. Of course, the writers might just not have wanted to deal with the issue of consent there.

It's definitely a story about addiction, and like all addiction, it's not just the addict that's the victim.

That is just the magical version of dropping a roofie though. If you roofie someone and have sex with them while they are missing a chunk of their memory. That's rape. If you magically delete a chunk of someone's memory, specifically a chunk which contains a very definite lack of consent so that they feel all cute again, that's rape too. You know what isn't rape, full and informed consent. Having a fight, then having consensual anger sex, not rape. Having a fight, then making up and having sex, not rape. having a fight and then roofie-ing away the memory of the fight and having sex, rape. It is not that hard.

Roofies are not just an amnesiac drug but also a sedative and hypnotic - the victim is physically unable to resist. (Sorry if you knew that, but a lot of people don't. I like when people have all the information.) So I'm not 100% on board with the analogy.

But I do see your point. Like I said above, I might be splitting hairs. And I am going off of Tara's reaction too, as she never accuses Willow of rape - being a fictional character, we have only what's written for her dialog/actions as evidence of what she's thinking. But I can recognize that the writing is probably flawed, so I concede the point.

I didn't accuse my rapist of rape (for my own reasons), therefore it must not be rape. That is literally what you said.

Um, no? That's not at all what I said. What I said is that we only know what the character is thinking through her outward expressions. We cannot go to this fictional character and ask for more information, because she is fictional. My point there was that whether or not it is rape is not conveyed in the script itself, and therefore, it is probably flawed writing. That was literally all I was saying in that second part, aside from agreeing with you.

Yeah, it kinda was what you were saying. Side-eyeing you like hell right now.

Well, that's not what I meant. You can side-eye all you want, but I meant literally the words I wrote. Crappy writing means we don't know what Tara felt. That's it.

Oh it isn't what you meant, you didn't intend to convey that. Well that makes it all better then. Intent, fucking magic isn't it.

Sorry honeybelle, but you might not have meant to say that; that is still what you did say. Accept it, and reflect.

Re: DA

replicantangel - 2014-09-27 15:21 (UTC) - Expand

You may think you're saying that, but it's the exact same logic a lot of people actually use. I have literally been told that because I didn't report my rape, it isn't actually rape and now I'm making it up. because I didn't express it.

It doesn't matter that she didn't say it. You're needlessly splitting hairs and arguing away what is the literal definition of rape instead of looking at the facts which is that she didn't make informed consent.

And why? Does it make you uncomfortable to think of Willow as a rapist? Does it make you uncomfortable to think of this as rape because it's not the typical roofie or back alley rape? Either way, it literally makes me feel like I need a bath right now.

I am sorry what happened to you. But I meant literally the words I said - flawed writing means we don't know what Tara felt. I initially assumed people would realize that what the character feels happened to them is rape or not is different from it being rape or not. You know what they say about assumptions. Apologies. But that is all I am saying.

Look, I've been swayed. I was on the fence at the beginning, but I agree there's a lack of informed consent. I am aware that is rape. I don't believe a roofie or the common media portrayal of a "back alley rape" is necessary for it to be rape.

The script gives us all the information we need to diagnose it as rape. There is clear erasure of consent, that is rape. Whether or not they would have made up or not left to continue the fight is irrelevant. Whether or not the character makes the allegation is irrelevant.

Yes, that was my point. Crappy writing means we don't know what Tara felt. I was agreeing with the anon, and simply adding that it was flawed writing.

Actually Tara compares what Willow did to what Glory did to her. She calls it a violation, if I remember correctly, of her mind.

Flawed writing or not, we know that Tara felt violated. Thus, we know that for HER? Willow used magic to rape her.

(no subject)

replicantangel - 2014-09-27 01:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

kallanda_lee - 2014-09-27 02:18 (UTC) - Expand

Go get raped, and kill yourself rape apologist.

Oh good grief. You could at least TRY to be original. Does this "ironic" and "edgy" comment rattle/scare/upset anyone anymore?

0/10

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