Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2014-10-13 07:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2014-10-13 07:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #2841 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2841 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
__________________________________________________
02.
__________________________________________________
03.
__________________________________________________
04.
__________________________________________________
05.
__________________________________________________
06.
__________________________________________________
07.
__________________________________________________
08.
__________________________________________________
09.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 039 secrets from Secret Submission Post #406.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
I'm trying really hard to think of any female characters in the copious amounts of TV I watch who do nothing but sleep with their boyfriend and shine his shoes.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-10-14 03:39 am (UTC)(link)Well, I did mention in the secret how it's *almost* always a female character that's the love interest. I feel like it's just a FAR more common situation. I will say, though, that one of the reasons I never much liked Ron in the Harry Potter films (and films ONLY) is that I felt he was turned too much into pure comic relief and Hermione's love interest.
To give an example of a character I think tends to fall into "just a love interest," I think of Star Trek 2009's Uhura. I say she's just a love interest because, although she's billed as the third most important character (behind Spock and Kirk) we actually never learn anything about her specifically. And she doesn't have her own independent plot line. Does she get a few cool scenes like confronting the Klingons? Yeah. But the VAST majority of her character is spent addressing Spock's emotional issues or her relationship with him. Before that, she's just being pursued by Kirk. It's not that she does *nothing* outside of her boyfriend (she has a job and a roommate), it's that she has no story of her own to be interesting. Which is forgivable when it's a minor character (think Suki from Avatar The Last Airbender), but less so when it comes to your third most promoted character.
no subject
For example, in Trek Reboot, all we learn about Scotty and Chekov and Sulu are that they are good at their jobs, they are loyal to their shipmates, and maybe one quirky thing per each character (Sulu fights with swords! Scotty lost Scott Bakula's dog!). We learn that Uhura is good at her job, she plays a vital role in figuring out what Nero is up to or dealing with the Klingons, we see her interact with her roommate and her shipmates at the bar, we learn that she is loyal to her shipmates, and then plus all that (which is the baseline characterization for every other character in the movies except for Kirk and Spock and arguably McCoy because he gets an added sentence of dialogue about divorcing and having a kid)--PLUS all that, we get to see her in a relationship. So she gets more characterization than the others.
When I think about Uhura!Prime, who I adore, even over the course of many episodes of television and half a dozen movies, we still don't know much more about her than what I've listed here for Reboot!Uhura (the novels don't count for purposes of this discussion IMHO). And she was awesome and amazing and her characterization consisted of being really good at her job and being loyal to her shipmates and loving music and dancing in the desert.
I think maybe this is an issue I just need to not talk about on the internet because I truly don't get what you're saying on a deep and fundamental level. :( Sorry.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-10-15 11:12 am (UTC)(link)I think OP, in the comment you're replying to, showed an example of what some people mentioned here: hold female characters to higher standards than the male ones. Too much nitpicking here.
Compared to the other secondary characters, Uhura is far better. Even in the EU (expanded universe e.g., the comics) she's more developed than the guys.
Zoe Saldana is one of the top billed but this doesn't make her the protagonist at the level of Kirk and Spock. This is very stupid, miss Saldana is the most popular actress of them all because she's in 3 big franchises of course she's among the top billed. But she isn't more a protagonist than McCoy and I dare you to tell me that McCoy gets his own storyline and character development that isn't being the best friend of the main character.
Another big problem in that argument is the lack of intersectional feminism: you can't ignore that Uhura is a black woman who wasn't allowed to be a love interest in the original series because of fucking racism. Her character wasn't a love interest but she also wasn't developed at all, even though they had 3 seasons and 6 movies to give her more to do. For black girls, having characters that are love interests isn't a bad stereotype or trope because, for them, the opposite is the trope. So it's very problematic for white feminists to want to push on women of color standards and stereotypes that aren't really valid for them too. In short, people like OP are saying that WOC should still not be allowed to have loving relationships and acknowledged as attractive ladies ONLY because white girls are reduced to that all the time and white girls are sick of it.
Woc see that as dehumanizing though. For them presentation is not 'strong independent woman who doesn't need no man' because they're always that and in their case that had always been an excuse to not acknowledge them as human beings that deserve love, care and protection like white women.
I get that OP doesn't like characters that she can't relate to but there is a difference between not being able to relate to a character because you don't share their choices (e.g., seek love) or sexual orientation (or race, religion) and saying that just because you don't like something then it must be universally wrong and deserving hate by default. Or that other women have to relate to the same things you relate to.
no subject
I get that OP doesn't like characters that she can't relate to but there is a difference between not being able to relate to a character because you don't share their choices (e.g., seek love) or sexual orientation (or race, religion) and saying that just because you don't like something then it must be universally wrong and deserving hate by default. Or that other women have to relate to the same things you relate to.
This is the part that's getting to me the most and the reason I think that I just don't need to engage about this issue anymore.
I have noticed that fandom spaces tend to be disproportionately filled with people who are not interested in women being depicted in romantic relationships in media. Although such statements may exist out there in the ether, I have never seen a male character derided for being just a love interest or just a father or just a husband (outside of the comments made specifically to me in this thread), but I routinely see women called out for being *mere* love interests, *mere* mothers, *mere* wives all the time.
And referring back to my comment about Uhura, if Scotty did fall in love with a nice Andorian, fandom would never call him a mere love interest, even though his screen time, importance to the plot and what we've learned about his personal life is on par with Uhura who is called such all the time.
I do not think that someone has to pursue a romantic relationship in order to live a meaningful, happy, and fulfilled life. Same goes for having children. I think there's valid criticism to be made for the dearth of media in which nobody pursues a romantic relationship. I am all for protagonists who do not pursue romantic relationships.
However, many people in RL pursue romantic relationships. It's a fairly common thing for people to do which is why it's commonly depicted in media. And at a certain point when I've read chorus after chorus of *mere* female love interest, I start to feel like these people must consider ME a *mere* female love interest in my own life story. Being a wife and a mother is a huge part of my identity. They aren't the only components: I have a career and hobbies and friends and other family members. But a significant part of my life every day is devoted to my romantic relationship and the children that resulted from that relationship. And when I see female characters dismissed over and over again for making similar choices, it really, really rankles.
I don't know if part of it is I'm hanging out in places that skew really young and are full of people who are at a point in their lives when they don't want to pursue romantic relationships--if you haven't had one before, maybe it truly isn't clear how much of your life that kind of relationship touches and that it isn't psychologically unhealthy for your romantic relationship to be an integral part of your identity.
IDK
Anyway, thanks for talking with me.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-10-14 12:38 pm (UTC)(link)(I know, I know, only four eps in, but seriously, I keep waiting for them to give Barbara something to do that's not directly tied to her relationship with Jim)
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-10-14 04:17 pm (UTC)(link)I was just about to say...
no subject
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-10-14 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)Probably the equivalent male character in the movie is Two-Face since his characterization is basically "Villain with gimmick." With no development and only a quick backstory.
Riddler, Robin, and Batman all get far more backstory and development.
For Chase, and for a lot of female characters, their role is literally love interest and was put in specifically for that purpose as the movie target audience is calculated. The thought is that women going to see a movie will go to fall in love with the main dude. Men will go to pretend to BE the main dude. So the Love Interest needs to be a Twilight Bella blank slate so the women can easily project themselves in her role, with no pesky character details to derail the fantasy for them. Or for the dude to project his wife/girlfriend/ideal onto because he's seeing himself as Batman.
Batman gets all the details because he's the escapist fantasy for both people, "I am not cool like Batman, I wish I was Batman." "I wish I could date someone cool like Batman."
And finally, just because you can't think of something that fits a trope doesn't mean it's not a common trope. People tend to watch things they like, and so if the blank slate Love Interest character doesn't appeal to you, you likely find yourself forgetting/ignoring media with it. Same as if you really dislike something, you'll notice it and it'll seem more common. I had someone tell me they were tired of superhero movies making up the majority of new releases. I pointed out that there was still over 100 romantic comedies released to every single superhero movie each year and that was hardly a majority and got "But it FEELS like that's the only thing they're releasing anymore."
no subject
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
And finally, just because you can't think of something that fits a trope doesn't mean it's not a common trope.
I agree with you that my experience is not universal and did not mean to imply that I think it is or should be. However, I watch a looooooooot of television (too much! LOL) and don't really encounter this idea in the TV I watch.
People tend to watch things they like, and so if the blank slate Love Interest character doesn't appeal to you, you likely find yourself forgetting/ignoring media with it.
This is a great point; I may just be naturally self-selecting media that doesn't have this problem (I don't read comics, for example). I suspect that something different is going on, though. I genuinely don't understand most of the time when people explain to me why they consider this female character as merely a love interest, merely a love interest meant pejoratively, of course. I'm about to reply to the person upthread who gave me the Uhura example that I totally don't understand what they're saying at all. I think this is probably just something I don't need to talk about on the internet anymore because I like y'all and my perplexity does not seem to decrease even after explanation.