fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2856 ]

The whole thing has evolved into a much larger discussion of several issues. Anyone who's at all unbiased and familiar with the situation knows that--well I guess if someone hasn't actually looked at anything gamergaters were doing and talking about they wouldn't know that.

I support GamerGate because I'm sick of feminists painting gamers as a bunch of white, misogynistic men. I'm a queer WoC. Their bullshit erasure and use of me as a pawn/shield in their attempt to paint white gamers as victimizers and harrassers of minority gamers is something I do not support.

So, it's clear that I am in the wrong, and I am awful, right?

That's basically awful. I don't even understand the mental gymnastics you have done to justify them. I can understand deciding not to align with feminist gamers because feminism has historically ignored women of color, but actually supporting the anti-Zoe/Anite guys out of spite is horrible, hateful behavior is completely incomprehensible to me.

I am not supporting Anti-Zoe or Anti-Anita. I actually like Zoe Quinn and have no problem with her. I am supporting #Gamergate, a broad discussion of many issues in gaming.

You insisting that a huge discussion among gamers must be how you define it is ridiculous. You insisting that people of color, women, and LGBT people only support it out of spite or hatred is ridiculous--and rather offensive.

You assume that you know better than someone their motives and emotions. You assume that you know more about a discussion than people who actually take part in it.

That's pretty incomprehensible behavior to me.

I didn't say people of color supported out of spite, I said YOU did, because that's what you just wrote. "I support GamerGate because I'm sick of feminists painting gamers" is what you wrote. So you support the vile bullshit of GG—which is where the death and rape threats and overwhelming misogyny is coming from—out of spite. If there is some other reason you support them, feel free to explain.

You hear PoC, women, LGBT+, etc talk about how they're sick of being erased, and you repaint that to "supported out of spite"?

No wonder so many people think feminism is the problem.

I could sympathize with that if you had simply said you don't align with gamer feminists, but you said you're backing people issuing death/rape threats and claiming that their gaming experienced is being ruined by women and queer people, IE. choosing a side much worse than the feminists when you could choose neither.

Edited 2014-10-29 04:41 (UTC)

I could sympathize with that if you had simply said you don't align with gamer feminists

Nice tone argument. You should either have sympathy for us for being erased, or you shouldn't, but the wrongness of our erasure is not dependent on our actions or behavior. In other words, even if we are/were the biggest assholes alive, that does not make erasing us okay.

but you said you're backing people issuing death/rape threats

Where have I said that? I think I have specifically said several times that nothing justifies death threats or any kind of threats. By YOUR logic, let me ask you this: why are YOU backing people issueing death/rape threats? Because by YOUR logic, if one member of a huge group sends a threat, they all are, and that means anyone who supports that group supports the threats.

choosing a side much worse than the feminists when you could choose neither.

I'm choosing a side that allows me to dialogue about issues in gaming that I'm interested in.

claiming that their gaming experienced is being ruined by women and queer people

I think we've gone over your whole "if one member of a group does, they all do!" illogic a few paragraphs up. Do I really need to refute this too?

I didn't say I didn't have sympathy for erasure, or queer people and WOC, I said I don't have sympathy for your choice in this debate.

I think I have specifically said several times that nothing justifies death threats or any kind of threats.

But that's kind of the WHOLE ISSUE I and most people have with the GamerGaters. It is being overwhelmingly used as an excuse to attack women and whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming. They have no leg to stand on against Anita or Zoe. It is very transparently an excuse to rail against women refusing to be excluded from their boys-will-be-boys culture.

I'm choosing a side that allows me to dialogue about issues in gaming that I'm interested in.

The Gamergate movement, as whole, does not give a shit about women or POC. That's kind of the whole point.

Because by YOUR logic, if one member of a huge group sends a threat, they all are,

They're not all issuing death/rape threats, but the sentiment of the movement very much supports it. I'm very curious who you're following/reading among GGers who is making pro-women, pro-queer arguments?

eta: my apologies for the comment misfires; I blame captcha.

But that's kind of the WHOLE ISSUE I and most people have with the GamerGaters. It is being overwhelmingly used as an excuse to attack women and whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming.

No, it's about many things. I don't agree with everything this writer has said about it, but he lists the issues Gamergate covers and dialogues on pretty succinctly: http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting

whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming.

Online, as a vocal queer WoC gamer, I have been faced with harassment, death threats, rape threats, insults, hate, been accused of awful things. None of this was by people I was gaming with. Rather, it came from social justice activists who use bullying and harassment on people they disagree with--aka, the kind of social justice activists that are considered "SJW"s. I don't think they have ruined gaming, but I do think they have badly damaged the online social justice sphere.

Oh, sorry, was I whining? Queer WoC being bullied so badly they no longer feel safe blogging about issues they face--man, what a whiny pissbaby I am.

The Gamergate movement, as whole, does not give a shit about women or POC. That's kind of the whole point.

If you have any evidence for that broad and sweeping generalization, I'd love to hear it.

They're not all issuing death/rape threats, but the sentiment of the movement very much supports it.

Funny, I'd say the sentiments the online SJ movement uses supports issuing death/rape threats pretty well too, based on how many have used SJ principles to justify doing such things. But I guess you'll be arguing that people shouldn't be feminists because of that?

Listen, I'm sorry that you had to go through such horrible treatment. I know how cliquish and insensitive a lot of folks can be. But please consider that the movement you've joined was spawned from a smear campaign against Zoe Quinn, and the GG hashtag started when Alec Baldwin posted conspiracy theory videos on false reports of Quinn's sexual escapades. A lot of folks who have never meant you harm have been hurt by people who were flying the GG banner, and some have even quit their jobs over the sheer volume of harassment they received. Just because the circles you travel in have "moved beyond" the Quinnspiracy doesn't mean that the unsavory elements of GG have, or that they've stopped existing. Just go to 8chan or the GG board on Reddit if you don't believe me. I guarantee that there are a lot of people on "your side" who'd be just as happy to rip you apart as those SJWs who hurt you the second you deviate from their narrative and stop being a good little supporter of the cause.

I know how cliquish and insensitive a lot of folks can be.

No, don't even. "get raped" "go kill yourself you **** scum" are not "cliquish" or "insensitive".

A lot of folks who have never meant you harm have been hurt by people who were flying the GG banner, and some have even quit their jobs over the sheer volume of harassment they received.

You can say this about feminism too. People under the feminist banner have hurt a lot of people too. And Gamergate people have lost their jobs over this too.

Just because the circles you travel in have "moved beyond" the Quinnspiracy doesn't mean that the unsavory elements of GG have

I haven't moved beyond the Quinnspiracy. I have no difficulty believing that men in the gaming industry would sexually exploit a vulnerable woman and then cover their asses.

I guarantee that there are a lot of people on "your side" who'd be just as happy to rip you apart as those SJWs who hurt you the second you deviate from their narrative and stop being a good little supporter of the cause.

Those people on "my side" are gamers, and they've never given me any shit or "ripped me apart" even though I've ran a queer guild on one of the most male-heavy MMOs on the net for some time, long before Gamergate.

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different anonymous.

your comment is exactly why i, not only call myself a feminist anymore, but i'm extremely DONE with the bullshit social justice circles in fandom that are literally trying to police everything and everyone.

although i'm not part of the spectrum, i'm still a WOC who has been very much abused by feminists (young and old alike).

and if anyone tries to gaslight me, fuck you and the cactus you rode on.

I have no doubt that people have bullied you in the name of SJWism. I still don't understand how this has brought you to the conclusion that the GamerGaters are an accepting and women/queer positive group.

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* but actually supporting the anti-Zoe/Anite guys' horrible, hateful behavior out of spite is completely incomprehensible to me.

Except they aren't doing that. Even Anita had disclaimers in HER FIRST GODDAMN VIDEO that the games she's criticizing aren't necessarily bad or without value, and that it's possible to enjoy games with sexist tropes in them without becoming a cartoonish, baby-eating misogynist.

"This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters, but remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects."

"Just to be clear, I am not saying that all games using the damsel in distress as a plot device are automatically sexist or have no value. But it’s undeniable that popular culture is a powerful influence in or lives and the Damsel in Distress trope as a recurring trend does help to normalize extremely toxic, patronizing and paternalistic attitudes about women."

That's not to say that Anita's videos are perfect and above criticism. No piece of media is. But don't go accusing her of saying things she hasn't actually said. Watch the videos and think critically about them before making your opinion, rather than having some angry young man on Reddit tell you what to think. People aren't angry at GGers because they're young white men, but because there are people using the tag to do some seriously heinous things. If you really want people to be compassionate towards you, publicly denounce those folk who are doing the harassment campaigns and try to stop the angry defensiveness and de-escalate things. The feminists will probably see the results of the campaign and say that the GGers are trying to take games away from THEM, not the other way around, because the GGers seem so dead set on belittling and silencing dissenting opinions. When major news outlets that have no dog in this fight about video games are reporting against your side, you should probably sit down, take a deep breath, and try to think about why the other side might be so angry at you.

But don't go accusing her of saying things she hasn't actually said.

Please show me where I have said anything about what Anita has or has not said.

Watch the videos and think critically about them before making your opinion

I watched some of her videos long, long before Gamergate, before she had even pissed people off over the Kickstarter thing. You assuming that I am some puppet for men is really offensive--you think that a WoC, LGBT person, etc must not be thinking for themselves if they disagree with your side is really offensive.

If you really want people to be compassionate towards you, publicly denounce those folk who are doing the harassment campaigns and try to stop the angry defensiveness and de-escalate things.

What are you even talking about with this? I literally have no clue what you're referencing, or if you're just jumping to conclusions and making weird assumptions about me.

because the GGers seem so dead set on belittling and silencing dissenting opinions.

Just like the feminists, hm? Or do you think they sent a knife and a "go kill yourself" note to a gamergater because they're in love with free speech and respecting dissenting opinions?

I'm sorry, but you and the "moderate" GGers pretty much ARE puppets of the folks who actually started GG. Just look through this 4chan chatlog to get a better idea of where this whole thing came from. The entire movement was founded on a hate campaign against Zoe organized by a group of 4channers, and has snowballed to attack other prominent women with feminist leanings in video games, using less informed people as a cover. #notyourshield even started on 4chan as a means to discredit the opposition.

http://puu.sh/boAEC/f072f259b6.txt

Someone upthread debunked that; or at least, they think they debunked that. Care to address/rebutt that challenge to your statement before you keep spreading it?

I don't mean that it in a rude way either; I'm genuinely interested in which one of you nonnies has the right origin of the #notyourshield.

Anon who debunked it or whatever, I kind of messed up on the origin a bit, actually. First instance is in the thread I linked and twitter dude I linked claimed creation. It wasn't started in the irc channel.

And for the record, I'm so tired about hearing about gamergate from both sides, but I think it's pretty shitty of the pro-side to pretend that it was a false flag operation that apparently tricked minorities into supporting it.

*anti-side whoops

Sep 02 23.40.59 #notyourshield is starting up

Sep 03 00.03.15 > SJW's, stop using gamers as your shield, we are black, too. https://twitter.com/hashtag/notyourshield?f=realtime&src=hash
Sep 03 00.03.22 6/37 now
Sep 03 00.03.22 Oh, by the way
Sep 03 00.03.27 yes?
Sep 03 00.03.43 if any of you are non-cis non-whites or non-males on twitter, please use #notyourshield
Sep 03 00.04.00 hahahha, cannot help there
Sep 03 00.04.04 #notyourshield backup squad reporting in
Sep 03 00.04.09 mah nigga
Sep 03 00.04.18 * Fireboy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.04.20 wait
Sep 03 00.04.22 guys anyone happen to know offhand how many twitter followers zoe had 2 weeks ago
Sep 03 00.04.22 * Victorj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.04.24 retweet the hell out of that shit
Sep 03 00.04.26 yea, femfreq is easy PR, you forget that sending her a nice tweet gets them lots of retweets from her followers
Sep 03 00.04.30 misread
Sep 03 00.04.46 I am non-cis, non-white, non-male
Sep 03 00.04.49 * rizonanon (qwebirc@Rizon-EB722580.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) has joined #burgersandfries
Sep 03 00.04.52 Can I use #notyourshield regardless?
Sep 03 00.04.54 codeswish: That's fine. You know, maybe part of #gamergate is that we should not demonize femfreq
Sep 03 00.05.07 * TheNSA has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.05.11 "Hey, I don't necessarily with @femfreq but we here in #gamergate don't condone the harassment."
Sep 03 00.05.12 Albel, you need my selfie?
Sep 03 00.05.14 The Sarkeesian Effect will handle it for us
Sep 03 00.05.15 Anita and Zoe are passive aggressive competing or victim-queen
Sep 03 00.05.17 Nah, I'm good bud.
Sep 03 00.05.28 * afsi932 (qwebirc@Rizon-8CBBFBD9.midco.net) has joined #burgersandfries
Sep 03 00.05.30 Albel, asking, 'cause I do not tweet
Sep 03 00.05.32 Use #gamergate and #notyourshield at the same time, pls Albel anonDorf AnimeJustice
Sep 03 00.05.40 someone needs to set those 2 attention whores against each other
Sep 03 00.05.42 I do
Sep 03 00.05.52 anonDorf, want mines?
Sep 03 00.05.52 FoTTS: Sadly, I don't fall under any of the #notyourshield categories but I'll put it in there where I can
Sep 03 00.05.53 * theadventuregoy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.05.53 that's a brilliant idea
Sep 03 00.05.59 ^^
Sep 03 00.06.04 two black holes eating each other
Sep 03 00.06.04 No, that's fucking stupid.
Sep 03 00.06.07 spread the word about notyourshield Albel
Sep 03 00.06.12 https://twitter.com/hashtag/notyourshield?f=realtime&src=hash - 60% anime avatars, fail
Sep 03 00.06.28 Yeah why not
Sep 03 00.06.38 NICe
Sep 03 00.06.41 find a way to make the ZQ followers hostile towards the AS followers
Sep 03 00.06.43 fucking /a/ids
Sep 03 00.06.56 Hey look at this, guys https://twitter.com/FartToContinue/status/506971431389782017/photo/1
Sep 03 00.06.56 @FartToContinue: "#GamerGate in Green! http://t.co/mzeF5aEdF3" (https://archive.today/PC23z)
Sep 03 00.07.01 Black nerds are generally weebs. I'm playing Neptunia on my Vita right now
Sep 03 00.07.11 The point is that #notyourshield pushes a point
Sep 03 00.07.15 anonDorf, messaging the details
Sep 03 00.07.31 ABlackGuy: is neptunia any good btw
Sep 03 00.07.32 its not gonna push anything if they can just say lol lies you're a cartoon
Sep 03 00.07.41 * badnews has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.07.49 Yeah, like for real this time too
Sep 03 00.07.53 tfw oppressed cause anime
Sep 03 00.08.21 it's a hard life for a weeaboo gamer out there right now
Sep 03 00.08.26 i tweeted that im mexican and i dont like being used as a shield to #gamergate
Sep 03 00.08.30 did i do gud
Sep 03 00.08.31 The original was so shit too, I'm surprised how it turned around

Sep 03 00.12.54 Holy shit #notyourshield is amazing

Sep 03 00.21.46 #NotYourShield just blew up my notifications
Sep 03 00.21.58 ANYTIME one of our side annoy him, do what it takes for his annoyance to be reduced
Sep 03 00.21.58 * Jamil_Neate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Sep 03 00.22.09 sarahv: did you do your homework
Sep 03 00.22.32 Holy fuck, whoever thought of #notyourshield, this shit is working https://twitter.com/gtrunner/status/507035016015384576
Sep 03 00.22.33 @gtrunner: "@rock_regi I'm #NOTYOURSHIELD take that crap to a political site where it belongs. I just want to play games. #GamerGate" (https://archive.today/ii35I)
Sep 03 00.22.35 Remember, defending ally and neutral assets is also important

Sep 03 00.36.00 NotYourShield is for Socially Minded individuals speaking out against it?
Sep 03 00.36.04 @TheQuinnspiracy: "@DevilEd_ do we need one" (https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/507039279084630016)
Sep 03 00.36.05 -> https://archive.today/yLR3T
Sep 03 00.36.12 Saying like "My views arent a shield for your corruption"?
Sep 03 00.36.16 basically yes
Sep 03 00.36.20 Aw yeah
Sep 03 00.36.24 except it more applies to race/orientation/etcd
Sep 03 00.36.27 ^
Sep 03 00.36.30 the stuff they like to use as ammo
Sep 03 00.36.30 Oh
Sep 03 00.36.37 too bad it's gonna end up being postly anime and vidya avatars and not real people
Sep 03 00.36.38 but I would imagine viewpoints do too
Sep 03 00.36.53 is modern leftist a troll account?
Sep 03 00.36.54 Its starting to get shitted up
Sep 03 00.37.10 it's for 'hey look, gamers are not all cishet males so not only are your claims of misogyny off-base, they're indirectly hurting us' or whatever
Sep 03 00.37.13 https://twitter.com/CorbNoir/status/507023846323806208

Even if they didn't invent it, it's pretty clear that they used it as a cover.

ayrt

Also, there's nothing in that log suggests any falsity on intentions of #notyourshield, or that it was even started on 4chan. Stuff like this:

Sep 03 00.15.51 > #notyourshield
Sep 03 00.15.58 Whose idea was this? Because it's taking off, from the look of things.
Sep 03 00.15.59 AnimeJustice: What was his "new thing"?
Sep 03 00.16.13 sarahv: no idea but it works and it's good and it helps
Sep 03 00.16.14 Shoe plugged #notyourshield though
Sep 03 00.16.18 yeah, its a nice hashtag, i've seen it a lot

where they don't even know where it started, and mention having seen it, actually seems to imply the opposite. Them talking about the hashtag, and encouraging use of it, does nothing to show that it's nothing but an attempt to "discredit the opposition"--other than in that it's attempting to discredit the opposition's lies about gamers being all white, misogynistic dudebros.

Someone on there says it best with: "#Notyourshield was made purely to deflect" Deflect what? Your deflections?

Sep 03 01.05.16 Today's one of the only days I've ever wished I wasn't a white male so I could troll sjws
Sep 03 01.05.31 Maybe I can get my black roommate to do a selfie
Sep 03 01.06.24 take a black marker to your face, it'll be way better
Sep 03 01.06.27 tfw spending two days spamming #gamergate
Sep 03 01.06.28 tfw i'm patriarchy and can't help #notyourshield
Sep 03 01.06.29 Just stay polite and don't threaten anyone while making a point, nothing hurts them more.
Sep 03 01.06.35 hambubger, do you have a twitter account?
Sep 03 01.06.36 tfw when an actual autistic neckbeard
Sep 03 01.06.39 for #gamergate #notyourshield
Sep 03 01.06.40 I am what they hate
Sep 03 01.06.46 * bububu has quit ()
Sep 03 01.06.57 I wish I was a neckbeard
Sep 03 01.07.10 JCtheDenthog: if you're not straight that helps too :P
Sep 03 01.07.11 I actually shave it everyday
Sep 03 01.07.12 OH FUCKING GAWD WHY
Sep 03 01.07.19 I'm straight

So you're saying this isn't covering, and that everyone who uses the hashtag is genuine?

DA
The funny thing about Antia: She might have put up all those disclaimers, but that doesn't change the fact that, since she hasn't even played the games and hasn't done her research, a lot of the time she calls out some sexist trope, it's not actually a sexist trope in the context of the game. And she doesn't even know it. A lot of the things she says are just plain wrong.

I disagree. I'm a gamer, gamed all my life. I know my games and their stories. I love games, it is my main hobby and I'd love to eventually become a creative writer for games.

All that said: Almost all games I've played has god awful female tropes. You know how I know that? Because apart from being a gamer I also study comparative literature and feminist critique. That's right. Games are just another media in which this one particular way (feminist critique that is. There is a long list of spesific ways to critic a piece of media) of picking apart a story is used. To be perfectly honest I feel like I'm surrounded by uneducated fools who don't understand that this has been going on for years in all other media from books to plays to movies. Gamers should be proud that their media is finally being viewed as artwork and not just a child's toy. But what do they do when a critical eye is being put on their media? They fucking call in bomb threats. What do you give me? Seriously? I'm so ashamed of being a gamer these days you wouldn't believe.

There ARE boring, lame and seriously overused tropes everywhere in gaming. If any genre has a good use of critic and a shaking up it is gamewriting! We want quality don't we? Or is the hundtreth damsel in distress or "she's really kick ass, she has her own opinion and everything, why are you whining that she's mostly naked? Being naked is empowering to women, I should know, I'm a man!". I know I'm hyperboling it, but really, that's what all my so called discussions about the portrayal of female characters has boiled down to. Lately, the last couple of years, we've seen a change however. A good change. And I'm pretty sure that you're now naming female characters as favourites and not just male on a regular basis opposed to just five years ago. And you know why this change is here? You know why game developers want to make fleshed out female characters? Because they want to be credible. They saw the critics and they learned from it, and the result was better game writing.

Chew on that next time you want to whine that someone didn't 100% a game you like before pointing out obvious tropes. Glaringly obvious to anyone who isn't born behind a barn.