[ SECRET POST #2868 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2868 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 075 secrets from Secret Submission Post #410.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

But it seems like something OP wants, and I can't blame them exactly. Sometimes it would be nice to be able to get an author to go on with a fic. I just find the writers strong arming the readers into paying shady as fuck. And there is a huge difference between writers abandoning fics and writers demanding payment for fics.

And yes, essential updates could happen if you pay the writer, so it's not entirely out of the question.

Another thing I find problematic about the set up this writer is doing is different payees/readers will want different things of stories and the writer will have to pander to the paying customer to a point (if they don't they'll fail miserably no doubt) and I sense stories could become convoluted by different patrons wishes. It just seems destined to become extremely messy.

[(Anonymous)]

And there is a huge difference between writers abandoning fics and writers demanding payment for fics.

Thiiiiiis. The latter smacks of blackmailing readers, honestly. Which isn't all that different to what "I don't update until I get reviews!" OP is doing in another secret today, but at least they're not blackmailing with costs that could have RL repercussions. Can't you also see some underage fan using Mommy or Daddy's credit card or PayPal and everything going to shit?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah I mean it's one thing to demand reviews and not come through, not much lost there. But I can see this writer possibly getting into some pretty damn messy situations.

Can't you also see some underage fan using Mommy or Daddy's credit card or PayPal and everything going to shit?

Yeah I sense this happening if they don't deliver decent works. Or either someone being a jerk and having them write a lot and scam them by turning it into paypal.

Also I could see, depending on what they write for (especially a TV series or Book) if they get big and noticed or someone directly tells the author the author probably threaten to sue or start shit w/ them online. I could see GRRM doing that.

[(Anonymous)]

I could also see disgruntled people who paid and feel pissed off at what they got/didn't get reporting this shit out of spite.

It's a whole new can of worms when you're charging money for a product or service.

It's not a mess I'd like to get into, that's for sure.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah even if they couldn't get there money back (ie if writers smart enough to make the people commissioning gift the money via paypal) I sense the pissed off readers starting wank about them in secret post, or elsewhere online and try and get people hating on them.

It's a lose lose situation. I'd be surprised if it works out well.

[(Anonymous)]

That's also one of the differences with fanart commissions vs fanfic commissions, I think.

With fanart you're taking a single moment or a single depiction, and to all intents and purposes the work itself can stand alone outside canon. You don't need to know the characters or its source, for example, to know that a piece of art is pleasing to you. The fact that fanfic relies so much on equally so much of canon for it to even make sense means that it can't ever stand alone to the same extent and more likely that book fandom creators especially are going to have a problem.

PayPal have shut down payments from copyright infringing sites before now, iirc. An anime sharing site a friend of mine used had to stop using them for payments. So one report to them from someone pissed off at/jealous of the author and there goes their entire account.

[(Anonymous)]

Didn't know paypal was cracking down on stuff like that.

Yeah even if the writer doesn't use paypal I suppose there are ways that people could try and get money back, via a credit card or bank or etc. Maybe they wouldn't get the money back but they can surely cause the writer a lot of headaches. And really, I doubt a banks going to care that you say you wrote the person a fanfic so you did give them something. Especially if they post it to FF.net, A03, tumblr, or a website. They'll be pretty screwed in proving it, even with email proof.

[(Anonymous)]

It's happened a few times over the years, so I have no idea whether they're actually cracking down or just responding when they're made aware of things. My guess is the latter, which would make this sort of situation even more precarious. One asshat reporting you is all you'd need.

Technically you tried to sell something you weren't legally allowed to sell in the first place, so yeah, good luck getting banks to take you seriously if you complain.

[(Anonymous)]

Where is this knee-jerk Fanfic Is Evil And Must Be Reported stuff coming from? I keep seeing it. I never hear about pissed off fans and fellow artists causing trouble for fanartists who offer commissions.

[(Anonymous)]

A promiment scanlator in my fandom just had Tumblr ban them thanks to a complaint from a disgruntled fan that they weren't scanlating things to their exact shipping taste (same ship, even, just different top/bottom preference). I don't know that many fanartists, but one that I do recently had issues with underage fans accessing their NSFW work and ensuing wank about reporting them for knowingly allowing minors access to porn.

This sort of shit happens.

[(Anonymous)]

So why would it people assume it'd be different for fanfic, then? I'd assume fanfic commissions would be treated the same as fanart commissions.

[(Anonymous)]

Competition over fanfic tends to be a different beast to fanart. Put it this way, I've never once seen the "Ugh this person gets so many more notes/reviews than me, why doesn't my stuff get the same attention/why am I not as popular?" stuff aimed at artists. Only at writers.

There was a secret here a while back that was basically that--OP didn't feel threatened by other/better artists but did feel threatened by other/better writers.

Not saying it doesn't happen in fanart circles too. Like I said, I've seen people threatening fanartists with having their work reported for petty reasons too. There just seems to be a deeper level of vitriol/jealousy/pettiness among writers.

[(Anonymous)]

You obviously don't hang out much in fanart circles much, because that shit happens all the time.

[(Anonymous)]

I was just gonna say

[(Anonymous)]

Just said upthread that I don't know many fanartists.

I've just never seen it in general observation either.

[(Anonymous)]

Really though fatart commisions shouldn't be that accepted, but they are.

Probably really it's because there is more shit with authors, tv shows, etc serialized work specifically stating that they absolutely don't want there works fanfictionized, especially for profit. With the actual creators being vocal about the hate it draws attention to it, and why fans bring attention to it. Where as I don't think I've seen too many of the actual owners of said work complaining about fanart.

IIt could be a generational difference. Before all fan works, and even original works like comics would be free on the net. Now with original works getting paid, fanworks want paid too. And there is obvious friction about the subject.

[(Anonymous)]

Fanfiction extrapolates on the world we're infringing (usually) to a much greater extent than fanart. It's producing an image of (again, usually) a single moment that can potentially stand alone, and in some cases the actual visual representation of the character isn't even set in stone (2D artwork of movie characters for example, or book characters). How do you claim copyright on something that doesn't have an agreed-upon image? You'd have to make the case that regardless, people could still identify that character, and you'd have to make the case that in doing so it's somehow infringing on your ability to make money from it.

Written words on the other hand do have an agreed-upon 'image' because they're already in written format. There's already something very concrete to refer back to, and it's harder to claim transformative work status because it's harder for that work to stand alone without reliance on the original source.

There's a reason 50 Shades of Grey had its serial numbers shaved off.

[(Anonymous)]

I admit there is a lot more grey area with fanart than fanfiction.

But there are still problem. Like you said with a book there is no agreed upon look, but there's a description and fans usually have a pretty vivid ideal of what said char will look like. Plus most books become TV series or movies at some point. Does it become unacceptable to fanart once there is a set image?

But like I said I think it's a very grey area with fanart, because it's more accepted by the originators of works compared to a fanfic which tries to retell their story or changes it.

I agree though with fanfics. And yeah I wish the literary world didn't give 50 shades and Twilight such a free pass because it got people reading again.

[(Anonymous)]

There can be a pretty wide variation when it comes to how each one of us imagines a book character though. I'm sure that for a lot of e.g. ASOFAI readers, the images of the GoT cast might not have been anything like they imagined the character (check out the fanart on the wikia -- some characters seemed to have a previously fannish-agreed image that bears no resemblance to the TV show). But now those characters, albeit in a different medium, do have a visual representation, so... where do you draw the line?

It's definitely harder to reach the burden of proof with a lot of fanart, especially those that depict the characters in non-canon situations. When you're identifying a character in writing, it's a little more clear-cut.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Actually I think the ASoIaF example is a pretty good one of why it's much simpler for creators, should they choose to, to go after profitting fanfic rather than fanart.

Say I offer to sell a commissioned artwork of Daenarys, in my art style but based on the TV show. Who's copyright am I infriging here? The descriptions of the character in GRRM's intellectual property? HBO's costume, hair and make up department or their conceptual artists? Emilia Clarke's image rights? I'd argue that of them all, the latter has the best of flimsy cases, because she's the one who 'owns' the image I'd be selling unauthorized versions of, but even then, how much of an impact on her ability to sell those rights would a 2D drawing have?

If I offer to write a commissioned fanfic about Dany, however, and it becomes so much less convoluted and simple. I am infringing GRRM's intellectual property, and he'd be well within his rights to sue the shit out of me. I think it'd be ill advised, and no creator with a decent PR setup would do it (I agree with the people who've said they'd try to make money off it themselves, in which case you could kiss goodbye to the freedom of creativity and expression that exists within online fanfic) but he'd still be completely within his rights.

It's MUCH harder to pin copyright infringement on most fanart. Yes, obviously, if you're basically tracing Mickey Mouse and putting it on Etsy then Disney will shit bricks down upon you, but a great deal of fanwork is:

a) In the artist's own particular style, which is the thing they're popular for in the first place and why people would want their interpretation of the character, and

b) Vastly different from the original source.

Add in things like a huuuge proportion of fanart being for Japanese IP which not only deals with international laws but also with an industry that is far more tolerant of fanwork-as-free-publicity in general. That's why doujinshi is so prevalent, despite the fact that it's as illegal as anything else mentioned in these comments. Western IP owners do not treat copyright that way. You may or may not agree with their stance, but the fact is they can, will and do crack down if they're aware of things.

Fanfic is a different matter simply because, should creators decide to go after fanwriters, it's going to be much easier to build a case against them than it is fanartists. That's why people are more worried about the very awareness among TPTB of fanfic, let alone paid fanfic.