[ SECRET POST #2872 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2872 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 019 secrets from Secret Submission Post #410.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

kingdom hearts is a damsel in distress story when all sora wanted was to save, not just the world (the princesses were collateral), but riku - his very male friend.

[(Anonymous)]

meh, Kairi was a damsel in distress though, at least in the first KH. and I'd say Riku had a lot more agency than Kairi did. I like KH but don't see how the original characters (at least in the first game) make an argument for feminism. if not exactly anti-feminist, they certainly still fall into the same tired roles.

[(Anonymous)]

did riku had any agency when maleficent showed him choice scenes between sora, donald, & goofy and manipulated him into believing that sora didn't care for him anymore?

yeah, kairi was a damsel in distress at first but the game still isn't part of the trope.

[ozaline]

Yes he did, as much as Darth Vader, Horus of Warhammer 40K or any other tragic hero who has fallen to villain who has chosen to embrace evil based on imperfect information.

He made a choice... based on jealousy, based on lies, but a choice none the less... that is the definition of agency.

I love KH, and I think Kairi isn't too bad as characters go but she certainly was a damsel in distress.

[(Anonymous)]

okay, but what about the organization? did they have a choice? did roxas have a choice?

it's still not a damsel in distress game. it has it, but it doesn't make it so.

[ozaline]

Clearly since the Organization members are capable of betraying each other, and even sacrificing themselves they do have free will.

Roxas had a choice, just a crappy one.

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is that it's not a damsel-in-distress story when the point was always "find and save both of your friends, one who helped cause this whole mess to start with."

[ozaline]

When the bad guys' plan involves kidnapping 7 princesses of the purest heart, and hooking them up to a monstrous machine... yeah it kinda is.

No one is saying that's the sum total of the plot, but it's there... and Riku isn't presented as needing "saving," until after the Princesses have been rescued, he's presented as needing to be defeated, or redeemed.

[(Anonymous)]

That annoys me, especially since Kairi leaves of her own volition in II AND finds Riku on her own. And Kairi's I plot is given to Riku in part II. To call KH sexist annoys the hell out of me.

[ketita]

idk, I have to agree with ozaline - I like KH, both of them, but the girls did /not/ stand out to me as having a lot of agency or personality. I think Namine had way more than Kairi, for example, but even her point was more to help Sora than do much on her own or for herself.

[ozaline]

You kinda have to take the first game on it's own merits since the second did not exist when it came out.

And a game can have a problematic element and still be quite good over all, and there's a lot wrong with the Princesses of Heart, as a thematic element.

Riku's story in II is also different, the needed to be found but he wasn't captured and used as an object in the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I love Kingdom Hearts and I'm not saying it's like "raaargh the most sexist thing ever," just there are a few things here and there that aren't quite so good, and of them happens to be a major focus of the first game.

[(Anonymous)]

Except he is. That's actually the entire reason Sora goes back for him at the end. To save him. :/ Way to spin the facts to suit your argument.

His plotline is literally about being groomed so he can be possessed by the Big Bad, used as nothing more than a sack of meat that the Heartless King can use to move about. That is literally his plot in the first game.

[ozaline]

None of that get's revealed until after the Princesses of Heart part is resolved though. You don't know that Ansem has possessed Riku.. which is kind of my point you spend 7/10th's of the game's story chasing after princesses.

And again Riku isn't a sack of meat being moved around, he had to choose to give into the darkness. Again I could make the same arguement about Darth Vader (the Emperor manipulated him), or Horus (chaos manipulated him), or Macbeth (the Weird Sisters and his wife manipulated him)... that doesn't take away responsibility for his actions.

And Re: Chain of Memories (if you want to get into the sequel territory), makes it pretty much clear that what happened to Riku was based on his wishes and desires, and that he is the captain of his own destiny.

Again that's where I make the distinction where Riku needs to be redeemed... Even though Ansem was in the driving seat, it was Riku's own actions that put him there.

[(Anonymous)]

The Princesses aren't revealed until you've already gotten through Wonderland. And you don't even get the reveal that Kairi is a princess until you get to Hollow Bastion.

And no, Riku didn't need to give in. he never actually meant to give himself to Ansem. He was promised power--not to be the villain's chewtoy. Seriously, look at the scene again and tell me that Ansem was telling him that.

What happened was he was being told that Darkness = Power. So open your heart and you get power! ...Not someone using you like a fucking puppet.

And no, that. That was not the point of CoM at all. The point was that he felt guilty for something that he couldn't entirely control, and Zexion used that against him. In fact, as you see there, Ansem doesn't need permission to take over and one slip-up could see him doing it again.

[ozaline]

If you didn't figure out Kairi was one of the princesses until the game told you, I'm rather shocked... As you say you learn about it after Wonderland (which is very early in the game... the first whole Disney world you visit)... you learn right away that the Princesses need not be literal Princesses cause Alice isn't... So of course Kairi is going to be one.

Of course Riku wasn't told the cost of power... the tragic villains never are. Again you're ignoring the comparison to Darth Vader, and Horus... both of whom had their personalities drastically changed by an outside force (the Dark Side, or the Chaos Gods)... The point being though that he had to embrace the Darkside of his own free will, where Kairi is lugged around in a comma for half the game, then strapped into a big key machine.

"and one slip-up could see him doing it again."

Right, exactly! He could be tempted to give into the darkness, and loose control again. But there's still the element of choice there. The whole point of the game is that, he has the power to fight back, with the help of his friends. And eventually learn not to fear the darkness which seems to have been Ansem's real source of power.

The villains always lie about the cost of power in these stories, but falling to the dark side is not by any means as the the distressed damsel trope.

While we want to see Luke redeem Darth Vader, he was there because of choices Anakin made (even though the prophecy about Padme dying was self fulfilling, and the Emperor lied about adverting it.) It was still his choice.

Ansem lied about the cost of giving into the Darkness (even though Maleficent warned him earlier that he might loose himself), but he still made that choice.