[ SECRET POST #2888 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2888 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 060 secrets from Secret Submission Post #413.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 (rape) - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. http://i60.tinypic.com/xktw7m.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

When did Theon see the house sigil?

[(Anonymous)]

He didn't.

This secret's flimsy, because he didn't see the Bolton sigil at all. He had no idea who his rescuer/torturer was, just that he'd been captured by what he thought were Stark loyalists and was (presumably) being tortured for betraying them. It could have been any Northern house, really.

Still, what I think the secretmaker is getting at is... well....

That thing he's suspended on?

As far as the show's concerned, that is part of the Bolton sigil. It's the frame and the flayed man on it (albeit upside down to Theon's position). I think they're assuming that because Theon is tacked up to something visible on the Bolton sigil (which, for all we know, could be used by any number of houses, especially since Bolton probably aren't the only crazy Northern one given to the odd bit of torture) he should automatically know that it's them, despite the fact that, by rights, every Northern house should be wanting him dead for betraying Robb.

Or something.

[(Anonymous)]

I have a friend with the same complaint as OP. Frankly I don't think either of them are reaching. It really COULDN'T have been any Northern house. If you're hanging off of a flaying frame, think House Bolton, not zebras.

[(Anonymous)]

I would imagine they are not the only one to use that kind of frame. It is a pretty standard torture device.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it's a reaching complaint, just that the explanation as to why he didn't automatically go "BOLTON!" is pretty fair.

It's not specifically a flaying frame, it's a standard torture device. It forces the tortured person to stand painfully, spreadeagle, and he didn't get anything flayed off him until AFTER that guessing scene, iirc.

It could have been anybody in the north until that point.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, Theon literally just came from being being tortured, concussed, chased, and almost gang raped. Not to mention he hasn't eaten, slept, or had water in who knows how long. I'm not surprised he's a little confused at that point.

[iceyred]

Honestly, if I was being horribly tortured my thoughts would not go toward house sigils. They would lean more towards: "Oh God, ow, ow, ow. This hurts. I hate you, you S.O.B. Ow. My spleen!"

[likeadeuce]

Occam's Razor here suggests that the scene is fine, and Theon's a complete idiot.

[(Anonymous)]

Or otherwise not thinking clearly.

[sabotabby]

Agreed.

[kaijinscendre]

I don't think he would have seen it? He was unconscious when he got there. And other than that brief "escape" he has not been out of the dungeon.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

He didn't SEE the sigil somewhere, he IS it. The Boltons historically flay their prisoners on a frame like that. I say historically because iirc, they don't openly do it now, they use its reputation as a threat. But of course it still does go on on the down-low, same as them still practicing lords' "first night" rights.

In the show, Theon should understand immediately what is happening to him and where he is (or that his captor is attempting to convince him it is the Boltons involved). I'll accept his not knowing Ramsay's motivation (not because he betrayed Robb), but why guess the Umbers, Karstarks, etc. all before the Stark bannermen who famously tack people up and skin them?

This scene does not take place in the books (none of Theon's captivity is until a year+ after "killing" Bran and Rickon), and it never would. It just doesn't fit right in the setting; a high-born boy studies heraldry. Bran is even seen doing it with Maester Luwin in season 1, and it's even before Robb and Theon leave.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Though the Boltons may historically use a frame like that, it's a common torture device. I certainly didn't think twice upon seeing it. Its just part of standard dungeon equipment. I think the Boltons using it as their sigil is more "we will torture you because that's what we do, and were so badass we put it on our sigil" than a proprietary "this torture device is trademarked and can't be used by anyone by registered Boltons".

All serial killers drink water, but not everyone with a glass of water is a serial killer.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

DA (who's familiar with the show but not the later books)

Is it a common torture device within the world of the narrative though, or something the Boltons are more notorious than others for using?

You may not have thought twice about it, but would a character within that world (assuming they were of their right mind and could even tell what they were tied up to -- I personally don't think Theon has the wherewithal in that scene to know at all, rendering OP's complaint sort of redundant)? E.g. would a Theon who hadn't just endured everything he had make the connection, or is the method common enough throughout the world of the series that he wouldn't?

Every reference I rememember when it comes to the flaying etc. seems to comes with a reference to the Boltons. I don't remember anything similar being used by anyone else.

I guess I'm just asking whether the reader/viewer and the character would be seeing the significance in the same way.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

You know, here's my problem with this. There have been times, when I've been sleep-deprived or really sick or, hell, even just really hungry, where my brain hasn't been functioning properly. Things I'm normally able to do with little effort have become difficult, and I've had trouble accessing memories and information.

Considering what Theon had already been through by the time he was strung up, it's not hard for me to believe that it'd take some coaxing for him to be able to put two-and-two together.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, Theon can't see what he's tied to, is head up, and hasn't been flayed. Instant House Bolton!

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I'll grant you head up, but Theon can certainly feel what shape he's been pulled into (it's called a saltire in heraldry; or if you want to get technical about torture/crucifixion, a crux decussata). And in the scene, Ramsay starts to skin Theon's finger- he says he'll stop if Theon can guess where they are, who he is, and why he's doing this to him; or, he'll cut Theon's finger off if Theon tells him to do that. Which he does. That "skin it or cut it off" part is revealed to have happened in the books, but not that asinine guessing game.

I'll admit, it's not 100% clear from the direction (and dim lighting to hide some gore) that Ramsay is using a small flaying knife to start to remove skin, but that is what he's supposed to be doing. Believe me, I just rewatching this scene to take the screenshot for my secret. It's episode 3x06 or 3x07.

So yes, Instant House Bolton. The showrunners just don't have a clue that this is a practical application of the sort of education that young lords would get; even though they showed Bran studying exactly this.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it certainly isn't the only thing D&D seem to have missed the point about.

Re: OP

[arcadiaego]

Do you not think he might be distracted from stuff he learned when he was nine by the fact he was being flayed?

[arcadiaego]

He had quite a lot on his mind, anon!

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, but the thing is he's being specifically asked to come up with the name of a family, probably a Northern family. Why the Umbers, Karstarks, some other one I think, before the Boltons?