fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2916 ]

[ SECRET POST #2916 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2916 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 050 secrets from Secret Submission Post #417.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 (second time) - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Seconding all of this. Honestly, this concern for random strangers who are engaging in an entirely fair business transaction with OP's friend is outright weird.

If someone sells me a car and assures me it is reliable and in good condition and then later the wheels fall off, is that a fair business transaction? I don't know OP's friend, but if they're as poor at editing as OP thinks, then I for one would be rather displeased if I hired them to do an editing job and wasn't satisfied with the results. I think that's a very valid concern.

If you bought the car, signed no contract, and received no legal guarantees, well, I can only say it would be very stupid of you?

Besides, the two types of transactions are hardly comparable, at least as long as we are talking middle-class people. The amount of money you lose if you buy a bad car is just so much more than the amount you lose if you hire an ineffective editor.

It is not an invalid concern. If the OP's friend were in a good financial situation and were simply seeking to sell their services because they wanted more money, I'd understand OP's worries perfectly well. But the friend in question needs the money to pay their medical bills. I think there may be something wrong with the OP's priorities.

But the question wasn't whether or not it's a smart idea, it was whether or not it was (in your own words) "an entirely fair business transaction".

It's also worth noting that the concept of fairness is not attached to a specific dollar amount. If I buy a candy bar and it turns out to be a piece of chocolate coated plywood, that's still not a fair transaction. It doesn't matter that I'm out a dollar vs. out thousands of dollars.

Oh, I'm sorry, I misworded it. I didn't mean "fair" in any sort of philosophical sense, just in that there couldn't be any legal repercussions.

For what it's worth, though, I think that the law covers the majority of the truly unacceptable cases and that the OP's friend's activities aren't anything that could be said to be horribly wrong (morality-wise). But that is, of course, subjective.

Oh, I see. I'm not really familiar with that usage of "fair", to be honest. I agree that it's not illegal, not a transaction that involved poorly executed service in exchange for cash doesn't sound very ethical, unless the clients are aware that it's going to be poorly executed... which I doubt.

I think it's just a case of sorting one's priorities out. It IS not nice to offer ineffectual fanfic editing for purchase. It is also not nice to be unable to pay your medical bills. Neither is nice, but one is less nice than the other, and I do think the OP should get some perspective here, especially as their friend is perfectly unaware they're doing anything wrong. They aren't even trying to deceive people on purpose.

I don't disagree with you in this particular situation, though it'd be nicer if the OP's friend offered a service they could perform well. But this reasoning:

"...but one is less nice than the other..."

Nah. You can't really use that as a justification because any number of rotten things are better than not having the money to pay your medical bills, including robbing senior citizens or check fraud. If I have to have saltines and mayonnaise for dinner because I have no money for food, that's not nice... but it doesn't justify sneaking into someone else's house and taking their flatscreen TV so I can pawn it for grocery money.

"They aren't even trying to deceive people on purpose."

I agree. It's too bad that having good intentions doesn't really make the end result (a poorly edited fic someone paid for) any less bad, though.

It doesn't make the end result bad, but it also doesn't make it an unfair business transaction.

I don't think those two things are comparable because of the nature of services like editing and because OP's friend isn't aware that she's a bad editor. OP's friend isn't seeking to defraud anyone, she thinks she's good at doing something and wants to make money off of it.

On top of that, when you buy this kind of service, you're always risking that you're not gonna be pleased with the results. If you buy a commission, for example, you might wind up not liking the piece that you receive. But it would still be a fair transaction, in the sense that the person you purchased the commission from rendered a service to you in good faith.

Anon, this is why you do research before buying something. If I'm buying a car, I'm getting it looked at by my mechanic before I buy it. If I want to buy a blender, I'll read up online & get reviews of the one I'm planning to get. It's the buyer's job to and choice to pick the goods and service for which they'll be paying money - it's the same reason people and companies have recommendations, testimonials, portfolios, etc. It doesn't sound like the OP's friend is intentionally defrauding people (although it wouldn't necessarily be illegal if she did), so customer disatisfaction means she won't have a good reputation. You can ask for your money back, but the person isn't under any requirement to give you that refund if she provided a service to the best of her ability.

If OP's friend ends up disappointing clients with her work, it could very well backfire on her in a very ugly way. Can't you imagine the sort of fallout that might occur from some of the wankier fandoms? I don't think it's weird to worry about that.

If we were talking about someone who misses all the obvious SPaG mistakes, I'd probably agree. But I have a difficult time imagining a shitstorm starting because a fanfic editor failed to point out an OOC piece of writing. Honestly, most people wouldn't even notice it's OOC.

Well, you're right, I don't think people would shitstorm over an editor failing to point out an OOC piece of writing, but I don't think it's that difficult for someone to pay for something and then not be satisfied with the results. It happens a lot, both in fandom and IRL.

Yeah, I get that it may be a valid concern in some other situation of a similar kind. I'm not actually trying to say the OP's concerns could not be justified under any circumstances, but this particular case does strike me as one where the person is clearly worrying about the wrong thing.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think worrying that your friend is getting in over his/her head and vulnerable to people being angry and disappointed with her work doesn't sound like the wrong thing to worry about at all.

DA

If any potential customers of theirs take on their services without either a) checking their current work beforehand or b) realizing that they're not very good, I don't really think they'd be the kind of people who'd notice it was disappointing work.

Man, I wish this were true but have you ever worked in customer service? Do you know how many people walk into McDonalds and then are shocked and outraged they're not getting top service and burgers that blow your mind? Believe me, people notice and they're not always shy about complaining.

AYRT

You'd assume though that someone seeking out fic editing services were doing so because they knew they needed some help with some aspect of their work. As opposed to just someone ordering food, where the criteria is "does it taste good" and "was this service good enough."

If they can't tell that the help they're getting isn't much better than running it through spellcheck (and, if OP's correct about their friend's shortcomings re: plot, OOCness, pacing etc. may actually make the work worse) then they're not going to be in a position to recognize the work's terrible in the first place.

Again, I regret to tell you this isn't true. Lots of people ask for concrit from betas. The logical thing is to assume that 1) they know their writing needs help and 2) they'll be open to constructive criticism since they've actively solicited it. HOWEVER. Some people who ask for concrit are fooling themselves. They don't mean to be dishonest about what they want, but they might not be prepared to find out the full extent of what needs fixing in their work. When they find out, the tendency is to shoot the messenger. I can testify this from firsthand experience, from eager authors who swear they want me to be brutal when I edit their fic and then throw seven kinds of tantrums when I point out their fic is full of run-ons... and worse.

As to the second, yes, perhaps people who don't know what needs fixing in their own fic won't know whether or not a beta did a good job or not. But maybe they will. Being objective about your own fic is hard, but reading someone's concrit and figuring out if they're right or completely off target is a different issue altogether.

I don't think you're necessarily comparing like with like though.

In your example, people get offended because they're getting more than they imagined they would, or more than they were prepared for. Of course hurt feelings would run rampant, however well intentioned and however carefully you make sure they knew what they were getting into.

In OP's case, people would be getting less than they thought they would, i.e. paying for an editing service that was only a glorified copyedit. What are they going to get upset about, "you didn't make this fic a million times better and it didn't get me a hundred more reviews than I usually get"?

Far more likely that they either wouldn't know (and maybe don't even want) true editing if it bit them on the ass, or they're part of the majority who think that getting a friend to read over their fic once constitutes having it betaed and therefore it must be perfect.

But hey, caveat emptor, right? If you can't be bothered or can't tell enough to do your homework, then too bad.

Well, in the example of the concrit, you can argue that yes, the client was getting more than they bargained for, but... they're also getting less. Granted this is my experience, but when someone asks for blunt concrit but doesn't really expect blunt concrit, what they expected instead was compliments. They expected their beta (me, in that case) to say, "OMG, this is fantastic I loved it and I couldn't find anything wrong! <3 <3"

But that's not what they got, so in their mind, they did get less than what they wanted from me and the services I offered. It's all in the perspective.

What are they going to get upset about, "you didn't make this fic a million times better and it didn't get me a hundred more reviews than I usually get"?

I can see this happening. Not with reasonable people, of course, but you won't always be dealing with reasonable people on the internet. Quite often, you won't know they're not reasonable people until they erupt. IA, it would definitely be a case of "too bad for them!", but that wouldn't really help whoever it was they were mad at.

How is it weird to be concerned when you know someone is selling something that is poor-quality? Personally, I can't in good conscience just sit back and let someone else get ripped off, even if they're a stranger. I've warned people against commissioning certain artists for this exact reason before.

Right? I'd be even more concerned if it was a friend of mine because I wouldn't want them to get in trouble. What's weird to me is that people think this isn't a big deal. I wouldn't let a friend walk head first into a wall without at least trying to stop them. I might not succeed in dissuading them, but I'd feel like a terrible friend if I didn't say anything.

Exactly. I wouldn't want my friend to become that person who has a terrible rep due to their shoddy work.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2916 ]

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