fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2918 ]

I've never in my whole life felt comfortable at church (despite growing up in one of those most relaxed Mennonite churches ever), and have always labeled myself agnostic. Maybe I like the idea of god and afterlife and all that, but it's never been something I had faith in.

Except a couple weeks ago, I was very nearly in a bad wreck. I spun out on a patch of slush, did a 360 across the highway, directly in front of a semi, spun 90 more degrees and wound up in the ditch. Neither me nor my car had a scratch, I was so calm during the whole ordeal, and I really felt like there was something holding that truck back or just being between me and it. Like a guardian angel or something. But you can't really believe in a guardian angel without believing in a god, and honestly, I feel like I could now.

But that faith seems...I don't know...kind of pointless without a religion to go with it. But I'm still soooo not comfortable with religion. I'm not comfortable when my friends on facebook feel blessed by everything or "give their life/hearts up to God," "accept Jesus as their personal savior," plead "Lord help me through this that and the other" and proclaim "God is great!" every time something goes right.

And I don't think it's just the publicity of such personal statements that make me uncomfortable, it's that those are personal statements and feelings that one apparently needs to have, and I just don't, still. I don't know how to let those be things that I feel, or even if I can or should or need to.

I guess, I'm prepared to say that I believe in something watching over us, and helping, sometimes obviously and sometimes in ways we can't grasp yet, and I believe as I always have that, like the proverbial Jesus, we should all strive to be good people who help those in need without judgment.

But on a spiritual level...I just don't know if that means anything if I'm not making those proclamations or having those other feelings.

So...yeah.

Faith in a higher power doesn't mean you have to believe in the same God or Jesus that everyone else does. Just because you believe something exists, doesn't mean that thing has to fit in with a specific Christian paradigm, that's why lots of different branches of Christianity exist too

Seriously. I know a lot of people who believe, but don't believe in anything specific, or they're like me and consider themselves a particular religion (Christian, in my case) while also acknowledging that it's one interpretation and even questioning a lot of the core beliefs.

I'm probably not the right person to discuss this, but I feel like it goes the opposite direction. If you believe in something, that's valuable, and that's meaningful. If you join a group that believes in something . . . well, there's certainly power in numbers, but there's also a risk that what they believe in might distract you from what you believe in. A sufficiently large organization of people, all trying to prove their devotion to their cause, can turn astray or even become toxic as they forget why they joined in the first place.

I don't want to devalue the power of community and being around folks you can comfortably share your feelings with. But I think the sort of individual faith you describe is a necessary starting point. If you're not ready for a community yet, that's your prerogative. I'm sure you'll find one in time.

I guess for me, it kind of goes back to the party line that I always see a lot of Christians trot out of "Well, let's say you're right and I'm wrong; I've lost nothing, but if I'm right and you're wrong...what does that mean for you?"

And a part of me still hates that line of thinking, because that's not faith, that's fear, but now that I've opened myself up to any sort of faith...yeah, what if they're right, and I really should be like those people I referenced in the first comment?

DA. You have faith; you don't really need organized religion or platitude based religion. Its okay to have spiritual beliefs without being Christian or whatever.

You might want to check out deism?

Pascal's Wager, you mean? As I understand it, the standard philosophical response is that you could believe people who accept the wager go to Heaven, and people who don't go to Hell. Or you could believe that people who don't go to Heaven, and people who do go to Hell. Or you could believe that everyone goes to Hell. Or you could believe that everyone gets reincarnated as stick insects. It's all conjecture.

I don't know if I'm being any help at all here, but looking at it from my own perspective, I don't really see what it "would mean for me." I mean, I try to live as a good person, and I usually do the right thing according to my own moral values. If I thought that meant I would go to Heaven, that wouldn't change anything--I'd still be trying to do the right thing. The same would apply if I thought my actions would lead me to Hell. I have my principles, and no one's going to bully or threaten me out of them, no matter what power they claim to have.

I dunno. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but I don't really know how to look at it right. Is there even a right way to look at it?

Edited 2014-12-30 00:47 (UTC)

Re: Crisis of faith-iness

(Anonymous) - 2014-12-30 00:56 (UTC) - Expand

Having faith doesn't mean you need to be an obnoxious proselytizer. :)

Re: Crisis of faith-iness

(Anonymous) - 2014-12-30 01:50 (UTC) - Expand

Pascal's Wager papers over certain paradoxes in Christian thought. And even if you dive into Christianity, there's a long tradition of writing about doubt and basically not feeling it.

So, are these Facebook people Anabaptists too? Because that is definitely NOT something I, nor anyone else left in my faith community, would say (another Anabaptist pacifist here *waves*). You are blessed, if you grew up in "the most relaxed Mennonite church ever." Mine, yeeeeeah, not so relaxed (not so Mennonite either, LOL), but eh. God wanted me to get something out of it. And I did. (Er. Do.)

Your friends on Facebook? They're the goats, BTW. And, no, I'm not being judgemental. All they're doing is essentially the opposite of what Jesus said, "Be DOERS of My words, not hearers only." Also see, "They profess Me with their lips and profane me with their hearts."

Then there are Paul's letters, "Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN, heard, or felt." All this "I gave my heart to Jesus!" or "I felt the Holy Spirit moooooove meeeeeee!" is pure, sheer, self-righteous and self-congratulatory theater, and absolutely based upon 100% human reasoning/the ways of the flesh. (Lean not on your own understanding.) Not "by the Book" at all.

In a nutshell: Go back to your most relaxed Mennonite church ever, nonny. (Sometimes I wish I could find one....) Get involved in their service projects. Read the Bible and do what it says (see the bit in James' letter about the widows and the orphans and the poor, frex).

When the rubber meets the road, it's what a Christian DOES that emulates/reflects the life of Christ, not what they SAY , and definitely NOT the quota of people they "convert" with empty platitudes, devoid of the power of the Spirit.

Well, I say relaxed in that they gave no fucks if you came to church in jeans and a T-shirt, and I think they actually left the general conference over its stance on gays, but I still just get the heebs over call-and-response prayers and even the lord's prayer at the end...something about unison-speak just hits my ear in uncomfortable ways. And I'm no longer in the same town as that particular church.

But thanks for your comments. Particularly reassurances on the "theater" of what I'm hearing (that's mostly not from people in that church, but people I knew outside of it, many of whom have "found God" within the last few years.

AYRT

Yiiiiiiiiiiiikes I would get the heebie jeebies over the call-and-response thing too (gave me the creeps at my granddad's funeral - he was Anglican - not the hippie Anglicans the other ones with the druid outfits and the whole creepy chanting). Not something my church would do, but my church has its own special problems, so I can't recommend it, unfortunately. (We're still Anabaptist, technically, but no longer a Peace Church, which breaks my heart.)

Glad my comments resonated. As for those who say they "found God"? If they had, truly, they wouldn't be talking about it. They would take up their own crosses, and follow Him. Read your Bible, read widely (read every translation you can get your hands on - the Internet is great for this - even the wacky ones), pray often (have conversations with God - there's a reason "the Lord's prayer" is referred to as the MODEL prayer -- see also what Jesus had to say about "vain repetitions"), and just generally...relax? Feeling like you're "doing faith wrong" (or having someone tell you you're doing faith wrong), is doing faith wrong, IMO.

Okay, so I'm going to come at this from maybe a different angle?

I'm a polytheist, a Heathen, and the people who identify as belonging to my religion range from atheists to agnostics to devout followers of a patron god. Some are even a combination of these things. Some are hard polytheists (like me), and some are soft polytheists. All of these ways of approaching it are equally valid and generally accepted, and even attested to in our history and mythology.

Your belief means whatever YOU want it to mean. If you don't feel Jesus is your personal savior, that's fine. Maybe someone else is your personal savior. Maybe no one is, and it's just a larger benevolent force. It doesn't matter unless YOU decide it does.

Faith isn't pointless without religion. Lots of people have faith but aren't a follower of a strict religion. (And lots of followers of a religion don't have faith.) If you don't want to do the Praise Jesus evangelism thing, you don't have to. If you want to do something but don't know what that would be, there's lots of options for that, too.

There are literally SO MANY spiritual paths in the world that don't require you to make proclamations or have feelings.

...holy crap, another heathen!

Holy crap! A heathen who doesn't have a big chip on their shoulder about hard polytheism!

I don't have a whole lot to say except that those things you're talking about are very specific practices of a very specific kind of faith in a very specific religious tradition and there are a million kinds of faith amongst human beings. Just because you don't have the kind of faith that they claim to have doesn't invalidate your experiences. I strongly encourage you to read and research more. And this doesn't even have to be a pluralistic thing - it could be that you just disagree with them in the end.

There is absolutely nothing that you need to be saying or feeling. If this makes sense to you and brings you comfort then go with it and try not to worry what other people would say about it. Pretty much everyone picks and chooses which parts of the broader faith they subscribe to to follow and which parts to ignore, even if they claim otherwise. I'm a big proponent of admitting that and ignoring anyone who has a problem with it. Even if the admitting it part is mostly to yourself. I don't think a personal belief means any less when it's private. You don't have to go around telling everyone what you believe. It can still be meaningful to you.

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to share it with facebook. You have the freedom to choose what you believe in, and how/if you should share it. That's something many people don't have and a right you shouldn't let anyone take from you. There is no one 'right' experience when it comes to religion and faith. God created millions of different people and He knows how to interact with all of us.

There's a lot of pressure in our culture to seem like you have it all together. To decide on a path and stick to it, to have it all together and know all the answers. That also extends to faith, especially in Christian circles, where doubt is seen as a bad thing.

Doubt is NOT a bad thing. Doubt is human. It's okay not to know and to have not decided yet. It's okay to change your mind, even. It's okay to be in spiritual limbo for a little while or a long while. Religion isn't easy; it's difficult. But the best religion makes you aspire to be the best version of yourself you can be.

It's okay to be in a crisis, a "desert place", whatever you want to call it, and sit with those feelings for a little while. In fact, that time of not-knowing can be hugely beneficial to your spiritual development.

Please don't feel pressured by ANYONE - atheist, Christian, or otherwise - to adopt a particular belief or viewpoint. I strongly believe that faith should be yours to claim out of love for it, not out of pressure, guilt, shame, or fear from others.

Use this time to do your research and gain as much wisdom as possible.

There are a lot of spiritual people who don't follow a particular religion, or who sort of follow one but not in its entirety.

I think it's too bad that you're upset about people expressing their faith. It doesn't sound like they're trying to foist it on you, just talk about something they care about. Especially if it's on their own Facebook wall.*

Maybe something about organized religion in general makes you uncomfortable?

By the way, I'm really glad you are safe. :)

*ETA: or did you mean you feel like you'd have to do this if you joined a religion? Because you wouldn't, I don't think you need to feel pressured to do that.

Edited 2014-12-30 01:14 (UTC)

This really isn't my area of expertise, but I can safely tell you that you need to formulate your own ideas about your spirituality. There are hundreds of practices to choose from. It could be that while you don't find Christianity agreeable, you may align with one of the many sects of Judaism, Islam, Taoism, Buddhism... possibly even Paganism.

It's fine to not agree with the things your friends think, because chances are someone has brought them up to think that way, and it may be completely opposite from what you feel to be true. Don't feel limited to one outlook. Explore your feelings. Find out about the options.

You're going to be just fine and you will absolutely find something that suits your ideology, I promise.

You're not alone OP. Sometimes I feel like there's something unseen watching out for me, not as dramatically as happened to you, but for me and my brother, I always felt something was there. Believing that doesn't go hand in hand with religion, tho. I dislike religion and everyone on my FB who "gives it up to God". Giving it to God is a really acceptable way to say "I refuse to be responsible for my life and decisions". I think, I wonder, I ask, I don't "have faith and give it up to God."

So rock on, OP.

Belief in a higher power and belief in a religion are two separate things. The two often go hand-in-hand, but it's not necessary that they do.

"God" doesn't have to mean "the Christian God." There are tons of ways to conceptualize the divine, and tons of ways to express faith, and many don't involve public proclamations at all. Sometimes, faith is quiet, and so deeply personal that no one knows about it but you. There's nothing wrong with that, and it certainly isn't lacking in meaning. When it comes to spirituality, its meaning comes from the impact that it has on your life, even if that impact is small and private.

You might want to try exploring different religions, mythologies, and philosophies. Maybe something will speak to you, and maybe nothing will. But I think seeing the breadth of spiritual experience out there might give you an appreciation for the idea that there isn't one right way to connect with or have faith in a higher power, and might make you feel better about not having certain religious feelings. Either way, like I said, religious feelings and faith aren't the same, and there's nothing odd about having faith without religion.

First off--OP, it is totally doable to believe in guardian angels/spirits without buying into the whole Christian God thing. Like every religion ever has some sort of personal protector belief, although whether that protection stems from a single higher power, a number of individual powers, or even your own personal energy depends on the religion. Maybe St. Christopher had his hand on you--or maybe the kami of that stretch of road liked you, or the dead relative you were thinking about last week did you a favor, or maybe even the emotional energy you put into your car came back to help you. Who the fuck knows? Decide what you like best, and what you can fit into your own worldview.

Second, it sounds a lot like you're being alienated from religion by the actions of the religious people you know. That's totally OK and honestly pretty understandable. I personally believe it's at least hypothetically possible for people to be able to manipulate some kind of bio-energy field, but since every single Reiki practitioner I've ever met has been the worst kind of dippy hippy bullshit-collector, I would rather gouge my own eyes out than admit it to any of them. It is perfectly okay to be very quiet and personal about your religious beliefs, whatever they are.

Finally, it's totally cool to continue developing your belief system to fit your new experiences and knowledge as you go along. You don't need to have the same kind of feelings about religion as your facebook friends in order to count yourself as believing in something. If you eventually do, that's okay too! A friend of mine in high school had some sort of religious revelation in college and is now a full-blown missionary, and from what I can tell she's having the time of her life trusting in the Lord. But don't try and force it if it isn't coming, you'll just make yourself really miserable. Organized religion isn't for everybody (take it from someone who used to be Catholic).

I hope you end up comfortable with what you believe, OP. (joking-not-joking: read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett and see if it helps, because despite the fact it's a satirical fantasy novel, there's an embarrassing amount of that worldview in my own personal belief system.)

Lots of people have a sort of generalized belief in the spiritual or a belief a god of some kind without subscribing to a specific religion. Even most people who identify as "Christians" don't always nail it down to one specific sect or even a physical church.

My problem with feeling like god or some spiritual force has intervened to save me from disaster is that it feels sort of... well... arrogant. Because when you think of all the people who have horrible things happen to them and nobody saved them from anything, why am I deserving and they aren't? The answer is that I'm NOT more deserving to live. I cannot imagine venerating a deity who had the power to save innocent lives but chooses not to, and that's the belief I'd have to uphold if I sincerely believed in guardian angels or whatever.