Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2007-12-30 06:16 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2007-12-30 06:16 pm
[ SECRET POST #359 ]
⌈ Secret Post #359 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS. Also, one possibly triggering image!
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] huh?
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, December 30th, 2007.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
And you think women don't do this? You think women haven't been doing this since the first wave, talking and compromising and trying to change legislation and people's attitudes through their words, over and over again in male-dominated arenas? You actually think that every man who heard them agreed with them because they were polite? I'm sure you don't, but stop generalizing feminism and relations between the sexes down to "well if women would just be nice about it maybe the men would listen!". Because if that were the case there would be no feminist issues today.
If someone came up to me, though, and wanted to talk about how I was treating them (and honestly? A lot of men don't even realize that they're doing it. It's just second nature and I've met some that as soon as it was explained, they were very nice about it and tried their hardest to stop doing certain thing),
And a lot of men simply don't care. A lot of men genuinely hate women and will not listen to what they have to say or respect their basic rights. And those men are clearly in the majority as very basic human rights (such as the right not to be raped) are still denied women today. Yes, talking and cooperation and acting with sanity and reason are necessary for feminists, but we don't owe it to men to soften our message or our demands. They're the ones who ultimately have to change--in everything from attitudes and behavior to giving up a great deal of privilege--in order for equality to be achieved.
no subject
I don't think she ever did that, only expressed embarrassment/distaste/etc at the feminists that think raging and rampaging over "the system" is the only way to get change?
Obviously asking nicely isn't working and hasn't worked, but seriously, if you yell and scream at a guy that he's a misogynist asshole, do you think he's gonna listen?
Yes, talking and cooperation and acting with sanity and reason are necessary for feminists, but we don't owe it to men to soften our message or our demands.
Exactly, but like I said above, there are ways to be forceful and demanding without coming off like an asshole.
no subject
Not at all, but perhaps I am missing the many feminists who are going around raging and rampaging over the system? I'm not being snarky there, I just genuinely do not see it (or see it very rarely). What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing, and wherever that happens there is not a misogynist or two far behind ready to bitch about those bitching feminists.
In fact, when I do see most feminists ripping into a guy, it's, well, when he's being a misogynist asshole. (Hell, I did it back on page 2.) And while that may not be productive, it can be the quickest way to express displeasure at their opinions, or chase them off from a blog or forum or debate where people have no interest in listening to trolls. Because while we're not going to change a misogynist asshole's mind by telling him to go fuck himself, we're probably not going to change it by nicely explaining to him why he's wrong, either.
no subject
talking is -- etjhkjfdhfjh going in circles.
What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing except I think the problem is, a lot of the time the way they do it is a lot harsher and stuff than necessary. From
Isn't something between those two ideal?
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no subject
With this much, which is perhaps the heart of the debate, I disagree. I don't think most feminists are harsher than necessary and I don't think feminism is damning itself with its most widespread beliefs and practices. I think the onus falls on men to listen and that they are for the most part dropping the ball because, as I said above, the majority simply doesn't care (or they don't want to make the effort to change).
no subject
I think most feminists start off willing to talk nice to misogynist assholes in the hope they'll see the error of their ways, but it's really tiring to explain basic principles to people who barge in expecting their ignorance to be accommodated when they could just read a book or lurk more. If they really care, they'll make an effort. And for every guy who is genuinely innocent, there are about three who've already made up their minds and are only commenting in the first place to wind people up and disrupt the productive conversation that's already going on.
Or shut it down, in the case of #13 up there. Catching more flies with honey is fine, to an extent, but when the fly just called you "dumb bitches" and "feminist cunts", I think squashing it is more than justified.