[ SECRET POST #359 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #359 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS. Also, one possibly triggering image!

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] huh?
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, December 30th, 2007.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[case]

Yeah, he was an ass too, and chances are nothing's gonna convince him to change his mind but all this RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRR in response is probably just cementing that right now. /:

Also re: the false dichotomy -- that's also assuming that women haven't been mean and "cunty" -- and they have been that too, right?

I think Ky was originally just complaining against the people that think being mean is the only way to go as opposed to finding the good mix of assertiveness and logic.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Okay, seriously, where are all these mean and "cunty" feminists at? I mean, yes, I've seen some angry women in the media, but most of the ones I've met in real life and in fandom are not assholes. Most of them are pretty reasonable and diplomatic about making their points. Unless, of course, they're faced with something purposefully offensive and disprespectful towards, not only what they believe in, but to them as people. Then, YEAH. They get mean. But, they really, really have the right to get mean in response to something like that. I'm sorry, but yes. We have a right to feel angry and offended by something like that secret.

And, you know. Some people are just not nice. It has nothing to do with whether or not they're feminists.

[case]

I don't know, I assume they're somewhere, since everyone's talking about them?

And sure, you have the right. Go for it? No one's stopping you. People are just saying, if you're trying to convince people to see things your way, that's not the best way to go about it. If you're not trying to convince people, what's the problem here?

Who said anything about being mean = being a feminist? What?

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

You, and others saying that feminists need to stop being mean and cunty? You're associating meanness with feminism (whether you mean to or not, that's what it looks like you're doing). They're not related. If someone who happens to be a feminist is bitchy in the way she (or he!) debates, then it's the individual's problem, not a problem of the movement itself. That's what I meant.

And, while I'm sure there are some bitchy feminists out there, there's a good chance that some women are being called cunty just because someone else doesn't care for the points they're making. It happens.

[case]

We're not saying that feminists need to stop being mean and cunty. We're saying mean and cunty feminists should stop being mean and cunty because it's not helping their (and other feminists') cause.

Don't misunderstand: we're not relating the two, only talking about the ones OF the group that ARE that way.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Are there some women who are cunty about things? Probably. Characterizing the feminist movement as cunty? No. Not from my perspective. Unless by cunty they mean, you know, demanding rights they ought to have.

In an ideal world, you would be right and she would be right.

In an ideal world, the women's movement could also demand equality flailing, screaming, cursing, swearing and cutting themselves, because they would still be right, no matter how they ask, because equality is not an expensive toy.

In an ideal world, none of this would be necessary either.

In the real world, being assertive and logical still gets you called cunty and mean by a lot of people. There isn't really a comfortable middle ground for everyone. I don't defend women--or feminist men, who seem nearly mythical, but I think I've seen one or two in my time--who aren't civil. I do think that feminists should treat others with the same respect they want for themselves, and which they themselves claim to believe all people deserve. But I'm not going to worry too much about men who get offended and hurt when they have the fact they're misogynists pointed out to them.

[case]

I don't think anyone's characterizing the feminist movement as a -whole- as cunty (or even the majority of it), just talking about the parts of it (specific people, etc) that are.

Meh, the few making the whole look bad. Look below at the replies to illegalism's original comment. She was not trying to be offensive and was replying really civilly to people, but look how many other people felt the need to come in and unnecessarily bash her when she's obviously willing to talk.

See those people? Would you call them "assertive and logical"? Those are the kinds of people I mean.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

I don't think those they're assertive and logical, but I don't know that I'd call them cunts either. Jaded and impatient, yes. Not cunts.

Listen, I didn't want to chase anyone away, and I'm sorry she was. She doesn't strike me as a bad person. She strikes me as someone who needs to examine just what she thinks women ought to be doing, and why they are the ones who ought to be doing it, among many other things. I tried my best to explain to her why I found her reply troublesome, and if I failed, then so be it.

But she did generalize that sort of behavior to the feminist movement, not just some people, and she did suggest that by being logical and assertive, we wouldn't alienate so many men. In my experience, the majority of the feminist movement has been logical and assertive, and they have changed things, but these same people have been characterized as cunts, and scared people. They have offended people not with their behavior, but because their message itself was offensive.

You cannot be nice enough for everyone.

[case]

Guess we'll just have to disagree on that, then: I mean, I've found some feminists pretty damn offensive in the past, and I'm all for equality and stuff -- for me, it definitely wasn't the message, it was the way they went about it. Condescending, why don't you know this already, etc etc -- and half the time they weren't even talking to me, I was on their side, and I still got offended for the sake of the people they were addressing. So some of those people HAVE been offending people with their behavior and not their message.

I don't think she meant "prove they're worthy" as in "they're not worthy UNTIL they pass a test" but more like "SHOW others that they ALWAYS WERE WORTHY" (isn't that the whole idea?) because until people are shown, it's hard to get people to believe (and like someone else - maybe you - said, a lot of people just don't CARE, so it's the feminists that have to take the first step). And to rage about it is NOT the best way to show them? And I have been talking to her about this, so I'm pretty sure that was the original intent, NOT like the whole "unworthy until proven" thing that people seem to be taking it as. Like a matter of bad wording, not conflicting ideas.

I just lost my train of thought

>> "let's talk this over and make progress in courts and work with the system and get people sympathetic to our cause in positions of power to change things"

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

I don't think she meant "prove they're worthy" as in "they're not worthy UNTIL they pass a test" but more like "SHOW others that they ALWAYS WERE WORTHY"

But that's my point. You cannot show people who are really biased against you that you always were worthy. If they were going to see that, they would have already seen it. You always were, and they didn't see it magically when it was their sisters and wives and daughters and mothers. This is not all men, any more than you mean all feminists when you say bitchy, cunty feminists, but it is an attitude that characterizes men as a group to greater and lesser degrees, every time they participate in sexist behavior. These are people whose minds you can't change, and so you do, in fact, have to demand.