fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2963 ]

[ SECRET POST #2963 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2963 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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03. http://i.imgur.com/wuz6aW0.jpg
[Underbelly: Razor, linked for (live action) sex/partial nudity]

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06. http://i.imgur.com/5jIgSLi.gifv
[Jurassic World / Guardians of the Galaxy, animated gif]

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07.

[Steven Universe]

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08. [ SPOILERS for Durarara!! Light Novels ]

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09. [ SPOILERS for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness ]

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10. [ SPOILERS for Naruto ]

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11. [ WARNING for non-con ]

[Banshee]

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12. [ WARNING for abuse ]

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13. [ WARNING for rape ]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #423.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's not everyone but there are a few. Hobbits actually speak a different language so Bilbo (Bilba Labingi) and Frodo (Maura Labingi) and all Hobbit names are translations. Likewise, the Rohirrim have their own language, so they are translations too.

I think many of the Elves are their correct names (though Elves have multiple names and the name you're most familiar with might not be a name ever used by the character. For instance, Finarfin was never a name used by him. His son translated the name for use in Middle-earth after the fashion of the Elves there so they could talk about him. Another example, Galadriel grew up with the names Artanis and Nerwen. "Galadriel" is the name Celeborn gave her I think.)

I think Aragorn and the people of Gondor are the correct names, as there is an Elvish strain in their language. This weird aspect of Tolkien's makes his world more real to me. It reflects what happens to actual languages, which was what he was going for I think.

Oh, wow. You know your stuff, Nonnie. :) This is awesome; thank you.

I can see why this would appeal to you and others, but I think I ultimately find it annoying. I freely admit that I have lots of issues with the books and one of them has always been that everybody has eleventy thousand names. LOL I guess I just always assumed that at least one of each set of eleventy thousand would be the one momma gave 'em. LOL

I get the idea of translation but not so much with names because they're just arbitrary sounds. I've met plenty of people who didn't share a language with me and we just called each other our names even if they were unfamiliar. I can understand with Gandalf different groups of people having different titles for him that become his name to that group. Or Aragorn hiding his identity behind Strider. But even if they can't speak Rohirrim, why would the hobbits not be able to mimic Eowyn's real name when told?

Also, all the gender swapped Bilba is starting to make a lot more sense to me. LOL

Most of the translation of names occur to better fit into the new language. For instance, say that no proper name ends with an "a" so Bilba has to be turned into Bilbo in the translated language. Some times it's more extreme but that was what Tolkien was going for. For instance, if someone had a name with a click in it, I don't think I could physically pronounce that. So, I would end up saying the name incorrectly but as close as I could manage. Tolkien thought of that happening but over and over again so that the original name might end up being very different because it was thousands of years old. You can find examples of that in the real world.

Fun tidbit - Tolkien created an entire naming convention for Elves. Their mother and father each give them a separate name. They can choose their own name for themselves or earn a name later on. And, they generally give names to their spouses to use. So, the whole crazy name thing is part of their culture. They don't have a "real" name like we do. Also, there are several dialects of Elvish, so that the Elves had to translate their own names to be useful and pronounceable to other branches of Elves.

Yes, if you are a linguistic, Tolkien is great!

Okay, that makes more sense. Elves and Gandalf, etc., have been around forever, so I can see that over thousands of years their names would have changed. And giving different names being part of their culture certainly complicates the issue.

I guess what I still don't understand is why would there be a translation issue with Sam and say Aragorn? Surely he could just say, "My name is Sambligia Slambiglia," and then Aragorn would just approximate that? I get your point about the clicks and other sounds that are generally difficult to impossible for non-native speakers to reproduce, and I get your point about names changing over many years. But I'm not sure why Bilbo wouldn't just say, "Yo, Thorin. I am Bilba. You're in my house, throwing my plates and eating my scones." And Thorin would be all, "Yo, Bilba, your name is weird. But while I throw your plates and eat your scones, and I can totally say your name right."

(This is fun. Keep telling me LotR stuff, Nonnie. You are aiding my current going-to-sleep daydream about being the filling in a Legolas/Gimli sammich.)

Okay, we're getting closer to the edge of my knowledge, but my understanding is that everything about Middle-earth is supposedly found in a book Bilbo wrote. Like, the narrator in "The Hobbit" is Tolkien, who is telling this story that he'd read. There's a forward in LOTR (I think) where it says that the information in LOTR comes from the Red Book of Westmarch.

Now, the history is that Bilbo wrote the Red Book. It's his diary in a sense (you see this book in the movie -- it's what Bilbo and Frodo are seen writing). Bilbo also wrote translations of Elvish literature, which is where much of the history of the Elves can be found in "modern day" as it were.

But Bilbo wrote these books in Westron. Now Westron is "English" in the books. Think of Westron as being like Latin, and Gondor like being like Rome. It is the international language that everyone speaks. So, the Rohirrim and the Hobbits and Dwarves would all use Westron when dealing with people outside their own cultures. So, Bilbo might've translated his own name into Westron (because he's been heavily influenced by Elves, and Elves do that kind of thing) or the Gondorian scribes did it.

Because, there is a copy of the Red Book in Gondor. And it was kept there for thousands of years and eventually Tolkien gets it and translates the Westron into English, which gives us the LOTR books.

So, really, everything is from the Gondorian perspective. It's Aragorn's perspective, in a sense. His people preserved the knowledge so that it could come to us today. So, the books are supposed to be a history, not a story. That's the conceit in the legendarium. It would make sense for Frodo (our main protagonist) to say, "I'm the important main character -- my language should be primary and my name in my language should be used." But, Gondor is the one who preserved the history and through which lens we are getting the tale. So, we get how Gondor would tell the tale, and use names they would use (unless Tolkien, our translator, decided he needed to translate the names further so modern audiences understood the situation better -- for instance, see the translations in the book Utopia. Not translating them means you don't understand the satire the author is going for by naming the place "no place").

It's the same for all the Latin names we have today of Barbarians Rome overcame. Romans are the ones who kept this information. It's how the information survived to this day. So, we use Roman names.

Does that make sense?

[Oh good! I was afraid I might be boring you. I can totally see the appeal of such a sandwich. Personally, I might go for Thranduil/Thorin, but at least we wouldn't be in competition. ;)]

Oh, oh, oh, Nonnie. This is pivotal.

This makes utter sense and codifies for me my main issue with the books.

It isn't the story it purports to be. This is not the narrative I'm looking for. LOL

YMMV, but for me, I love the Tolkien world building. Ents! Rings of power! Rivers of forgetfulness! And I love his plotting. Quest! Fellowship! Company! I am no man!

But his characters fall almost universally flat for me. No depth and breadth and very little development. This makes utter sense if everything we're reading is a history of what happened rather than the story as it unfolds.

(Is Thranduil/Thorin very common? What's your favorite fic of them? I have also contemplated an Arwen/Aragorn sandwich filling. LOL)

Yeah, that's a common complaint. If you know anything about J.R.R. Tolkien and his area of academia, then you know he was a well-respected linguistic. His translations of certain old texts are well regarded among linguistics. I just got his translation of Beowulf for Christmas and intend to read it this summer.

Tolkien was taking a lot of his cues from those old stories. Beowulf, the Kalevala, Ring Cycle, Celtic/Welsh Arthur -- Tolkien drew a lot of themes and stories straight out of these things and emulated a lot of the style. His goal, at first, was to create a mythology for England. So, he used the archetypes for heroes and villains. It's only the Hobbits who are actual characters, giving a way into the High Fantasy archetypes and giving us something to relate to. But, yes, it is better to view the books as a history (especially the Silmarillion -- that one really makes no pretense of character at all).

[Thranduil/Thorin is fairly popular in the Hobbit fandom. Not as big as Bilbo/Thorin but up there. Thranduil/Bard is coming up since the third movie. Although, I think I'd pick Aragorn/Faramir first for my sandwich ;) I haven't had much time for reading lately but one of the fics I really enjoyed was "Honored Guest" by pherede - http://archiveofourown.org/works/614516. It's a little darker than I like Thorin/Thranduil fics but it is excellent. Hobbit fandom fics can run the gambit for sugary sweet or angsty so it kind of depends on how you like the characters to find the fics that are enjoyable to you, although that's likely true of all fandoms. It just seems very pronounced to me with The Hobbit.]

Nonnie, I had to go to bed before you replied with this comment, but thanks for talking to me. This was really interesting. I am on such a LotR/Hobbit kick lately, so I appreciate you indulging me.

(I think Aragorn/Faramir sandwich is an exceedingly fine choice! *bookmarks fic* I've never read any Thorin/Thranduil, so that'll be interesting.)

This is also the justification for the Best Lord of the Rings Theory: Tom Bombadil is actually some random story about a nature spirit completely unrelated to the Lord of the Rings that got drawn into the story by accretion.

That would make more sense than him being Eru.

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[ SECRET POST #2963 ]

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