fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2980 ]

[ SECRET POST #2980 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2980 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Lots of multiple secrets in one comment this week, throwing off the count!

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Inspired by above prompt.

What are your favorite worldbuilding worlds? What draws you to them?

What worldbuilding elements do you wish were present in your fandoms?

What about your own worldbuilding? Tell us about your world or ask questions.

OP of the above thread...

I absolutely love Gormenghast. Just the whole ancient meaningless rituals and bizarre feeling of the books.

Also William Gibson's cyberpunk novels. The whole world feels so alive, there's so many little details and touches, but it never gets bogged down in them. You can see the neon streets.

Question number 2... IDK? I don't really understand the question?

#3... it's a megalopolis owned and run by several different corporations vying for power. Immortality is a thing but it's wildly expensive.

The best world building for me is Tolkien. It's just so deep and immersive. I think his languages definitely give a real feel to the world. The timelines, geography, genealogies -- all of it is really thoughtful and well done.

But, I wish there was more day-to-day stuff. Like, how do the Dwarves feed themselves? Just how many Elves are in Mirkwood? Did they live in towns or just hang out in the forest? How was money used (the Hobbits seem to have it but it's not something you see with the Elves)? What do orcs do when their Dark Lord is taking a breather? Are their orc-babies (since Tolkien said there were orc-women)? Are they abused from a young age or are their family bonds among orcs?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

TBH - and not wanting to be harsh - but this is the point where worldbuilding loses me, because I'm generally just totally uninterested in those questions, and because I don't see how any of that could really cast a more illuminating light on the story or make it more enjoyable. I don't know how anyone could satisfactorily answer all those questions in an interesting way. It seems to be a major concern with a lot of people though, and I just don't understand it.

I think you have a failure of imagination then. I'm sure that Tolkien certainly could've put in details like that if he had wanted to and made them interesting. I believe that Tolkien created exactly as much of a world as he needed for the stories he was telling and that's all you really need for worldbuilding. BUT, Tolkien went beyond that too. If you look at all the external stuff that's available, he does have answers to questions that aren't in the main books (because they're unnecessary in the books but they just seemed to interest him).

But, with regards to story, I feel like some of the questions raised aren't just purely an exercise in curiosity. Like, I don't know if I can buy that the Mirkwood Elves are the largest population of Elves but they don't farm or produce anything of their own. That's what it says in the book. So, are they really able to get enough food just through hunting? And if they don't produce anything, how can they pay for food to come in? A question like this can be jarring when considering the realism of the rest of the world -- the tone of the book. Another example, if the Dwarves must import all their own food, then Thorin's decisions regarding Bard and the debate at the gate could have disastrous consequences for the future of his people if Dale would end up providing such a crucial element for Dwarvish existence. That could impact how you read Thorin's character and understand the conflict that's going on.

Worldbuilding is often in the background. For instance, in LOTR, Tolkien only hints at the vast history that he set out in the Silmarillion. But you feel the weight of that history and that makes the world feel real. In another kind of story, knowing how they farmed and used money wouldn't be as big a deal. But, in such a nitty-gritty world as Tolkien's -- who does account for trade in Gondor and the feeding of Mordor's armies -- it just begs questions for the parts he didn't get to.

Well there's a few different points here I guess.

First, I can imagine circumstances in which some of those questions would have interesting stories attached to them. But I can't imagine them being interesting in themselves, or a consistency between them mattering.

Second, I don't care about realism. I care about emotional realism, I guess, and things like that, but ultimately, I don't care about realism or whether Tolkien's world really could exist. And I think, in regards to your example, that the consequences are already so weighty and immediate in that situation that a more ground-level explication of the economic situation there doesn't actually add anything. We know that this is tremendously important for many reasons already. I know that's just an example, but in general, I don't find this kind of thing compelling.

Third, to the point about the weight of the history - I think that's compatible with my point. Because the existence of these legends, and of some kind of broader history, is important to Tolkien's literary aims and to the aesthetic of the work. But a detailed, comprehensive working-out of those legends, I would argue, is unimportant. It's not necessary for the legends to all make sense and leave no unanswered questions for them to do what they need to do. In the same way that I don't think the details of orc society add much to the story.

Of course, Tolkien did do quite a lot of worldbuilding. But to me much of that worldbuilding is fairly separate from the reasons that LotR is good.

Okay, I don't think you have any understanding of world building at all then. Every detail Tolkien adds brings weight and beauty to his work. It adds to the characters and the plot. The world building is crucial to his story. You can't separate it out. Aragorn wouldn't be the strong character he is without the world building of his Numenorean ancestry and all that entails for him. Gondor wouldn't be in such dire straights without the world building of its long slow decline.

When I talk about realism, I mean that for Tolkien's world, realism is a big selling part for him. For Harry Potter, for instance, I would not expect such details because Rowling's world is kind of a mess and doesn't feel like it could really sustain itself. It might have your "emotional realism" but it's not a "real" world and that's fine. But Tolkien was going for a history. He originally intended his world would be the mythology for England. So, when something happens that's counter to that (like the Mirkwood Elves), it throws me out of the story. Putting it back in line with the rest of his works makes it less jarring.

I don't personally need all the extra stuff. The thread asked what did you wish was included -- I like this extra stuff. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you need to shit on someone else's interests. I find that all these little details adds to the characters and helps enrich the story. You may not feel that it's necessary or that it couldn't be put in in a way that added something but I disagree. There are lots of details that are already in the books that you are clearly ignoring as uninteresting to you but that helped to set up the world that existed in the book and had an effect on how you viewed it, whether you realized it or not.

Anon, I'm absolutely with you on day-to-day matters being the best part of worldbuilding...but I don't think cushlamochree is 'shitting on' anything. Both mythical legends and down-to-earth details add depth to a story in different ways, it just depends on what you are reading a story for/what you look for in a story.

I do apologize if I'm coming off harsh; I don't mean to (and, reading back, I think my second post is where I think I might have failed in that, so sorry about that).

But I do think, for me, realism is not at all a selling point in Tolkien, and I don't think he is particularly realistic. Fascinating yes, realistic no. I think - just for me - that what adds to Aragorn's character is the basic weight of what Numenor was and what it represents, and the idea of a lost kingdom, and a long time in exile, more than the historical basis of it. And the more that you get down to the nitty-gritty, the more consistency you demand, the more and more you lose me. I'm not trying to shit on it, and I apologize if it came off that way.

But worldbuilding, and especially the idea of consistent, realistic worldbuilding, is a huge part of a lot of modern fantasy that honestly just really loses me.

I actually quite like George RR Martin's world building in the sense that he's got a history for his world, with alliances and feuds, battles and tourneys, legends, that sort of thing. Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards series is also pretty good. Guy Gavriel Kay sort of adapts historical settings for fantasy, but wow, he does it on a grand scale.

In general, I wish people put more effort into their fantasy settings and what distinguishes them from a generic medieval England setting. Tell me what it looks like, how people live! Tell me what they eat, what the holidays are! I know some readers find that tedious, but I like it.

Well my favorite has to be Harry Potter, just because it just seems like there's SO much room in that world for a bunch of stories. It's pretty interesting, The magic has a clear system. I like that.

One of my most developed worlds, involves lots of magic and many many different systems of magic. Magic is a natural resource of the world. Also there is a group of people who's bodies are mutated by magic, giving them a special power. They are the inverse of a magic user. They don't use magic, magic uses them (insert soviet Russia joke here) The powers have a system of how they work that's really developed. They have a huge hidden society.

Magic users also have their own communes and covens, often divided by what kind of magic they do usually. A lot of divides based on who does what magic and stuff. Some kinda of magic are less trusted than others. Many practice in secret and rely on the fact that most ordinary people consider them some wacky fringe belief. They are on...somewhat conflicted terms with the mutants. The two groups sometimes get along but also have ego matches where they disagree on who's the superior group. They eventually end up having to pull together to defeat someone who has a foot in both groups.

Also there's a domain between reality and dream, life and death and all that, ruled by a being who couldn't pass on to heaven or hell because his soul was twisted by the type of magic he attempted, trying things that were bigger than himself. He rules it and makes deals with the people that end up there or just tests them, and has limited access to the real world as he makes small attempts at breaking into it through "Jerkass Genie" type deals for portions of soul.

Yep that's what I got so far. Still developing the magic bit details..

Your dealmaker being sounds wonderfully Lovecraftian, and a bit like Satan. I would totally read that!

Thank you! I actually was aiming for sort of a trickster type, crossed with an evil genie.

and thanks that makes me happy to know.

I agree so much about Harry Potter. In some ways I like the world better than the books. This is why Harry Potter will probably always be the fandom I read the most fics from. There is just so much you can do with this world and so much room for developing it further as well.

yeah. I love worldbuilding fanfiction, sometimes more than "canon characters" fanfiction, in general.

As see above I'm kind of skeptical about worldbuilding in general. But one of the things that I do really like is when people come up with really interesting folklore and cultural background. For instance I'm reading Patricia McKillip's "The Riddlemaster of Hed" at the moment and I love all the riddles and the idea of the depth of the riddle-lore. It can add a lot of character to a work.

When it comes to worldbuilding, this is kind of my favorite part, but for a very different reason. I love developing folklore and culture, specifically to inform what my characters are doing, what they are thinking, and generally just what kind of lives they are living. I love when people go into background depths about the history of their world, because then their characters' thoughts and actions just make so much more sense and carry so much more emotional weight.

This one is easy. Hands down, Tolkien's Middle Earth. It is so complex and well thought out with its own rules that are mostly consistent. And there are centuries of history he created and it is just amazing in its breath and really interesting.

I also like the worldbuilding Frank Herbert's Dune. I think it is really interesting all the stuff he created and the way he's imagined this world of the future that has clear ties to ours and yet is so different.

One of the reasons I love the Star Wars EU so much is how much it expands the worldbuilding of the movies.

Babylon 5 has some great worldbuilding, particularly in terms of the various races and what they are like.

Basically, I'm all about world building. It is second only to characterization in things that are important to me in what I read/view/whatever.

CrossGen has some excellent world building. For instance, in Meridian you have the floating islands and the world below being a bit of a wasteland. But the timber growing on the world floats to make floating ships. And there's ore to keep heavier islands up. It works for Sephie, who is a young Minister and must learn how to govern and trade, so the world is complicated and fairly real -- letting her deal with a lot of complex problems.

Other examples: Mystic has the 7 guilds of magic (and lesser guilds). Or Sigil's complicated centuries-long war with the Saurians. Or Arwyn's Tolkienesque world with the Egyptian-like winged people and the dragon harems. Each world is so amazing and interesting.

I do get a little confused by the overarching plot with Danik and the Atlanteans but from what I understand of it, I think it's unique and interesting too.

I've always really loved Narnia, especially the fantastical realms like the sea-people at the end of the world, and the underworld people who grow gems like food. Some of the world building with regards to humans doesn't make all that much sense but the imagery of the other places always stayed with me.

For my own world-building, I'm working on a world that's like Narnia in that it's a flat, unrealistic world. But, I'm trying to apply some real world physics to it to try to at least have some sense of how it should operate. It's hard to wrap my head around it actually. I'd love a good reference for the physics of a fantasy flat world (or as much as is possible if you just assume gravity is magic). But if you look up flat earth physics, you get crackpot theories and nothing useful. *sigh*

This is the BEST worldbuilding toy. Zoom in on a continent, any continent. Then just start mentally filling it in. http://gmtools.uo1.net/map.php

I love worldbuilding that's an "alternate universe" of our own universe.

i.e. if I'm developing a world that's an alternate version of our own, one of the first things I'll do is take a look at how major world religions would change, how the Bible might be different, and how this would impact cultural practices.

So in one universe, magic is real and has never been hidden. The Bible is mostly the same, and while it has a MUCH larger following, Paganism is also mostly the same. That's different is a subset of Pagan-Christians, who mostly just happen to follow traditions of both religions, but with one key difference: they interpret Mary and Joseph (Jesus' parents) not as wife and husband, but sister and brother - which is 'proof' that Jesus was conceived by God, and that Mary just didn't get knocked up by Joseph before they were married. This leads to a society that places a LOT more importance on sibling relationships over romantic or sexual ones. This subset of religion was a result of a brief period of time during the Middle Ages when paganism and Christianity weren't as hostile to each other as normal - leading to families sending their sons to become Christian priests, and sending their daughters to become Pagan priestesses (as they had more power than Christian nuns).

I also develop religious practices in the modern-day era. For my D/s AU, I've put a lot of work into making sure D/s as another 'division' in society is palpable, but also not the dominant division/only one, and doesn't overtake society. One way I've done this is Jewish right-of-passage traditions. Along with a bar/bat mitzvah when a kid comes of age, there is also another ceremony held in their later teens for when they manifest/declare as a Dom or sub. Catholics and Protestants also have their own traditions related to these, and said traditions are yet another one of those small but contentions points of dispute between the two, on top of all the usual stuff we have in our world between Catholics and Protestants. (And this stuff is still influential even in a now-secular America; a sub's wrists are a bit like a woman's cleavage in our world, thought just a bit less racy - Puritans thought subs' wrists should always be covered, while Catholics never cared much, and this is a debate that still rages in school dress codes to "this" day/into the 21st century).

I think what I wish came up more in fandom was ABO worldbuilding outside of sex/mpreg, and for both D/s and ABO, I wish people would stop eliminating other demographics like race, religion, etc. One of my favorite worldbuilding fics pretty much won me over by differentiating how two Alpha men acted because one was black while the other was white. How does a world cope with having six sexes instead of two, and what exactly differentiates male and female alphas/betas/omegas? Or, in the case of D/s, how does this change broader social interaction now that every ethnicity/culture has to contend with the subdivisions of D/s on top of gender divisions? Is this a world where it's acceptable for two men to be together as long as they're D/s, or does there still have to be one man and one woman?

Basically...I wish people fleshed out their worldbuilding a little more.

*looks up at comment*

*needs to stop*

*probably won't*

When MMORPG's are built right they can be so amazing. Layers upon layers of lore to be discovered and even translated. Those are my favorites.

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[ SECRET POST #2980 ]

Your Favorite Worldbuilding; Your Own Worldbuilding

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