fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2992 ]

[ SECRET POST #2992 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2992 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Grand Theft Auto 5]

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03.

[Zipang]

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04.

[Ricky Gervais]

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05.

[Tokyo Babylon/X1999]

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06.

[Dexter]

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07.

[The Mentalist]

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08.

[The Truth - Terry Pratchett]

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09.

[It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia]

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10.

[Douglas Adams]

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11.

[Black Books]

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12.

[Lucky Star]

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13.

[Edward Petherbridge as Lord Peter Wimsey]

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14.

[Ga-In, Brown Eyed Girls]

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15.

[Oz the Great and Powerful]

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16.

[Colin Baker]

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17.

[9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors]

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18.

[Yatterman Night]

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19.

[Johnny the Homicidal Maniac]

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20.

[Blake's 7]

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21.

[Game Grumps]

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22.

[Alexis Denisof]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 170 secrets from Secret Submission Post #428.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I have a REALLY hard time looking at people in history and thinking they're bad for doing terrible things (such as racism, sexism, slavery) because I don't really think they ever really had much of a choice not to be and that I wouldn't be here if they hadn't.

Like, I've seen tumblr posts talking about how the United States and industrialized Europe and modern medicine was built on slavery and exploitation of non-whites and I'm never sure how to feel.

Should I feel bad about it?

Because honestly...without modern medicine...I would never have existed (given some of the conditions my immediate family members lived through).

And then I ask myself, would I go back in time and prevent slavery and all these horrible things from happening if it set the world back technologically? And the answer is no.

Part of the issue, for me, is that stuff like slavery STILL goes on today. Like chocolate manufacturers that utilize child slave labor. And everyone in first world countries who buys those products (and with how big those corporations like Nestle are, it's a HUGE fraction) -- basically every race, religion, sex, gender is contributing to it.

For the simple reason that they want chocolate.

And I just can't help but think: how can I judge the people of the past when these things still go on today and I have so much more? I mean, it's not like I'm donating/selling all the things I don't need (like video games and personal computers) to try donate that money to give oppressed people a better life.

It just feels hugely hypocritical to me.

Generally, I agree with the sentiment. I tend to find some of the harsh judgements people pass on historical figures pretty bizarre.

However,

not judging people=!=not wishing a bad thing they did never happened;

wishing a bad thing they did never happened=!=wishing the good consequences of this bad thing disappeared. You're putting yourself into the sort of mental model of the whole situation that presents you with strange and contrived alternatives. It's not like time travel is real, and even if it were, we'd still have to resolve the time loop paradox in some way, which would render your conclusions ("I wouldn't go back in time and prevent slavery") logically meaningless.

While we're at that, why are you assuming that without slavery, good medicine would not exist at all??

But that's the thing -- if I had the option to go back in time and stop it, I still wouldn't do it. Because what if it did set us back technologically? And that's not a risk I'm willing to take.

It's not meant to be a practical exercise but more of a moral thought experiment:

-If I could undo the enslavement suffering of millions of people throughout history, I STILL wouldn't do it due to the mere risk that it could mean the loss of things that make my life comfortable (industrialized Europe/United States and modern medicine).

A lot of modern medicine is built on INCREDIBLY unethical experimentation, sadly.

And it's also reflective of how I think those tumblr posts kind of fail to reach me.

When they say "Remember that the industrialized world/modern medicine wouldn't exist without slavery/exploitation" it doesn't make me feel bad. It makes me think "Well thank god it happened then."

Ah, I see what you're saying. Well, that's true enough, in your mental time travel model, there's always a risk (though not a certainty). And your being unwilling to take this risk is understandable.

However, I just... really don't think it works this way. I don't see why you need to approve of, or even stop disapproving of, a horrible event, even if you'd be unwilling to prevent it if given a chance. This is a false dichotomy.

This is a false dichotomy

Welcome to Social Justice Warrior Training 101.

What the hell? Have I finally got myself a hater anon?

What are you even trying to say? That no false dichotomies exist and anyone who uses the term is bound to be a SJW?

AYRT

No, I'm saying the opposite, and trying to eat at the same time (bad idea). I mean, SJWism operates on false dichotomies. SJWism is false dichotomies all the way down. Def. not a hater anon, dmw!

Oh gosh, I am sorry. Yes, of course, that's a fair point. Many legitimate social justice issues have seemingly lost their grey areas as a consequence.

Enjoy your food, though!

No worries! Thanks, the food was very good, considering I've not kept anything down (or in) all week.....

It's not that I don't disapprove.

The action of slavery or genocide or exploitation is ALWAYS ALWAYS wrong.

But can I judge the people?

Can I judge the horrifically racist, sexist, exploitative people who did those things while I, at the same time, live in a world where children are enslaved to make CHOCOLATE of all things and I have so much more than those people had?

And...I just don't think I can. I think it's far too hypocritical -- especially because I would never be willing to stop it if there was a risk that it could undo any of the technological/medical progress we've made.

Well, we agree on this. I don't think passing sweeping judgements is very reasonable in this situation, either. My objection was mostly to your "thank god these things happened, then". It is entirely possible to disapprove of certain past events without judging the people who caused them or being willing to hypothetically "undo" them.

Well, I meant the "thank god these things happened" more in the context of the tumblr post.

If you're saying that slavery was integral to the development of the industrialized world and modern medicine (like that tumblr post was) and my life is basically only possible due to modern medicine...well...I'm going to be grateful it exists because without it, I wouldn't either.

Why do you feel the need to be grateful for everything that brought about good things? I mean, I get feeling grateful for the good things themselves, but... for literally everything that caused them?

If a car with people in it got crushed by a train and in thus doing stopped the train from reaching a damaged bit of the tracks and killing all its passengers, should one feel grateful that the people in the car died? It seems more reasonable to me to feel grateful just for the fact that the people in the train survived.

Well no but the context of the tumblr post was that we should feel awful about the United States and industrialized Europe and modern medicine because they were built on the backs of slaves and, indeed, the post claimed that they couldn't exist without the exploitation of those people.

So if you're saying something that's keeping me alive couldn't existing without doing terrible things to others...well...it doesn't make me wish those terrible things didn't happen. If your contention is that they were NECESSARY for medicine/industrialization to occur then of course I'm grateful they happened -- I couldn't exist without them.

Note that I know YOU are not contending that they were necessary but this tumblr post was and it's what got me thinking about this.

Well, I can't know either way, of course. You're right that there might've been a direct link between inhumane experimentation and the development of modern medicine and technology.

Again, I don't see why you equate "feeling grateful for [thing]" with "not wishing [thing] didn't happen". These are dramatically different sentiments, and the latter definitely does not imply the former.

I can understand your objections to the post in question, and I would scoff at it, too. However, it's not because the goodness of modern medicine somehow makes slavery less bad. It's because the implication that you have to feel bad about any good thing as long as it was in some way contributed to by a bad thing is utterly idiotic.

That's understandable, but you may be working from distorted information. This sounds like how a young person might see things, simplistically.

It's even a common tool of those who want to continue oppression or abuse to insist that it's actually useful and even necessary.

In avowedly capitalist countries, this can take the form of insisting that capitalism is necessary, welfare is bad, and everything we love comes from corporations.

In ostensibly democratic-socialist countries, it can be distorted into how awesome the workers of the nation are and how the Party and the Army are saving us all from a horrible fate, etc.

I get what you're saying about chocolate. That industry is messed up. I think it's worth seeing if it can be reformed.

See, this isn't a question of the morality of the actions themselves but of the people who committed those actions.

People who would have lived in a world that didn't have all of our comforts (and is a world where slavery continues to exist when it is so much more within our power to stop it).

And can I judge those people when I wouldn't be willing to change what happened in the past if it meant risking that we might lose some technological/medical development?

I just feel like a hypocrite for judging them.

Are the things they did terrible? Yes. Are they terrible people? Maybe. But if they are then I think I'm probably worse.

I think it may be worth considering that values were extremely different back then. Obviously by today's standards, much of what went on in the world in historical times is downright barbaric, but they simply didn't believe they were doing anything wrong. If they did, I doubt they'd actually have done it, because I do believe that people are generally good (if only because good is the path of least resistance) and behave according to the standards of their time and society. That we recognize that things like slavery and such are evil acts now reflects more on us and how we've progressed as a society (indeed, as a species) than on those who practiced it in times of yore.

Well, judging others' behavior to label them as good or evil persons is less morally useful and less important than judging your own behavior so as not to do evil in the future.

"Hate the sin, not the sinner," I guess.

Just to be a helpful pedant, you only need one equals sign and it's best to put spaces in. :)

Like so: Richard Nixon != a crook

I don't usually vilify individuals who were doing what everyone else was doing...it's hard to take that kind of thing out of context. Of course, if you were championing it, that would be a different story.

In general, though, I don't really judge individuals so much (I never knew them) but cultural trends in history. A lot of events had some really good and really bad things come out of them. Slavery is a particularly difficult one - the US as we know it would be so radically different and many of the people I care about wouldn't even be here if not for the slave trade. But I can never condone it. I simply recognize that a horrible thing happened to have some long-term consequences that, if not necessarily better than any alternative, can still be appreciated for what they are. tl;dr: sometimes good things come out of the ruins of bad things.

You sound like me. I think about this all the time.

But the thing is, I'm mostly defensive about not villifying people for being products of their time, and when people do it I get so mad that I can't say to them "Okay, now tell me about the things people in a future society that's closer to utopia will be condemning you for."

I agree. But also agree with the sentiment that wishing the bad stuff didn't happen.

I mean, I wish the Holocaust didn't happen, but....we learned a lot medically from some of what the Nazis did in their experiments...

:/

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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