fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3004 ]

[ SECRET POST #3004 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3004 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Mary Poppins]

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[Hoozuki no reitetsu]

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[Atonement]

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[Terry Pratchett and his daughter]

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[Insurgent]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 022 secrets from Secret Submission Post #429.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I don't think animal rights trump human rights. I also don't think that there's a moral superiority to vegan/vegetarians. I think that our species evolved to eat meat and that is one of the reasons we became a dominant species and developed higher brains, and it's stupid not to continue to do what our ancestors did. I don't buy the argument that because we're "superior" or whatever to animals that we should be held to a higher standard when it comes to eating meat or producing meat for consumption.

I don't think animals should be tortured but I am okay with industrial farming and animal testing. Human lives mean more than animal lives to me.

(Disclaimer: I don't think there's anything wrong or stupid about people choosing to be vegan or vegetarian but I don't think they have any right to lecture me on liking to eat meat or what kind of conditions animals are kept in to produce the meat I like.)

People who think animal rights trump human rights are very, very silly.

I'm not objecting to the entirety of your comment, but "it is stupid not to continue to do what our ancestors did" is a pretty weak argument. Especially since environmentally speaking, it would be even stupider to CONTINUE doing exactly what our ancestors did - industrial farming as it exists now is by no means a sustainable industry. This is partially a result of the fact that many people in the West eat much more meat than they would need to simply have a balanced diet, btw.

Welfare issues - which worry me personally, but, of course, shouldn't necessarily worry you (no sarcasm intended) - are largely a result of the sheer scale of the meat and dairy industry. The most harmful practices are a part of the so-called intensive management farming. If meat production weren't so overblown/if synthetic meat were produced in great quantities, many welfare issues would simply vanish.

See, I think your concerns are valid but they're not the ones I'm targeting with my comment. There are legitimate issues regarding industrial farming and the environment. But, the reason why your argument holds more sway with me is because it is targeted to how it affects humans.

I don't care that industrial farming is not good for animals. That's my main point. All things equal (which isn't exactly the case with industrial farming), if it benefits humans, then do it.

With regards to ancestors, I'm only talking about the fact that they evolved to eat meat. (And unless we're talking about different ancestors, there wasn't a lot of industrial farming going on in the caveman era.)

I see. Well, that's fair enough, although the problem here is obviously that you simply have a different set of values/different empathy standards than the people whom you were complaining about. There isn't any rational conflict here, just moral conflict*.

I don't think they have any right to lecture you on anything - simply because no one has the -right- to lecture other people on their actions - but I think it's OK for them to judge you, seeing as this is just how human morality works.

*I personally have zero issues with animals being killed for meat production or any other purpose, and I don't think that arguing against killing animals altogether can be a logical position - unless you're also going to argue that all forms of true predation are inherently bad - so I'm specifically talking about welfare issues.

My disclaimer: I eat meat.

That said, I find a bit of dissonance between your comment "I don't think animals should be tortured" vs "lecture me on...what kind of conditions animals are kept in". If you're talking about people who complain about the entirety of the food industry, I can agree.

However, I am hugely opposed to any inhumane practices, like animals being permanently penned in stalls where they can't turn around, or abusive workers who kick and beat the animals. I still want the animals treated humanely, and I don't care if it costs more.

See, I don't think there should be people kicking the animals but keeping them in tiny pens to increase food production is fine with me. That's the unpopular part of my opinion, I guess.

By saying, "I don't think that animals should be tortured," I mean that mutilating an animal for fun, target practicing dogs or keeping a thousand cats stuck in one tiny house without ventilation is not good. Kicking the animals would be included in this because there's no real reason to kick or beat them for food processing.

But if an animal has to suffer to cure human cancer, that's acceptable to me. Same with tiny pens for food production.

so... you are actually for animal torture.

(and just so you know, there is a world of difference between "cute cancer" and "support an insustainable meat industry dependent on overconsumption")

World of difference, but they were both points in my original post.

I think there is a difference between harming an animal for fun and for food but if you don't see the difference, then *shrug*.

Just wanted to say that I don't think there are ANY legal instances of animal rights trumping human rights anywhere. If you know of any, I would like to see them cited.

I'm not talking legally. I guess you could say human lives instead of rights. Either way, I have encountered people who value animal lives more than human lives and do think that the rights of animals are worth more than the rights of humans; they would save the puppy instead of the baby in the burning building question. They may not get traction in a court of law but that doesn't mean it's not an opinion people have. It is and that's what I'm talking about.

(People are so literal and pedantic on this site.)

People with views like yours genuinely frighten me.

People who react like this are the ones who frighten me.

We didn't evolve to eat meat lol. We evolved to eat whatever we could get our weird little hands on.

Opportunistic omnivores! Like squirrels!

Which includes meat. I'm not saying only eat meat. I'm saying that we shouldn't deprive ourselves of any food group. Meat's the one that some people want other people to stop consuming. My comment was basically referring to stuff like this:

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter

I'm aware of that interpretation of the fossil record and I mostly subscribe to it myself. I just don't agree that modern vegetarians are depriving themselves by not eating meat, or that the average healthy human needs to eat meat to survive the way our ancestors supposedly did. Meat can be a part of our diet, but it's not an obligatory one.

I'm not saying anything about personal choices. If some people don't want to eat meat, that's fine. But I disagree with people who would try to make that choice for everyone. Humans became humans because of eating meat. It helped us develop our brains to be what they are. Given that, I think it's silly to suggest humanity now swear off meat. And, yes, that is the kind of argument people throw at me. My argument is geared towards that kind of thinking.

Re: Unpopular RL Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-27 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular RL Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-27 04:23 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular RL Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-03-27 04:28 (UTC) - Expand

I'm not sure an evolutionary biologist would agree with you that eating meat is directly correlated with our brains being big.

And wth, you're "against animal torture" but you're fine with animals being kept in torturous conditions so as long as you get to stuff your face with meat? Jesus. I'm not even "morally against" eating meat but factory farming is disgusting, and frankly it's frightening that you seem proud of how much you don't care.

I'm also not sure how you're defining superior. Because we have bigger brains and technological capabilities than other animals, that comes with zero moral or ethical responsibility? Environmental concerns (meat industry sucks resources, especially the factory farming scheme) along with concerns over animal welfare aren't things that a "superior" being should be bothered about?

I put "superior" in quotes because I'm not defining it. People use different qualifiers but it's basically whatever argument is used to suggest that we have some reason to be separated out from animals to be "better behaved" than them. Like I said above, I don't think torturing animals for fun is good. But when people tell me I shouldn't eat meat because humans are more evolved or "superior" or whatever, that's bullshit to me.

I quoted an article above that does say that eating meat did indeed give us bigger brains because then we didn't have to waste so much energy on having a huge gut. You can take it up with them if that's not something you agree with.

I'm not "proud" of not caring. I'm just sick of people yelling at me for liking meat and telling me I'm a terrible person because humans should be better than meat-eaters. Yes, I do wish there was a nicer way to treat animals than factory farming. But if it's factory farming or not having meat (which is the zero-sum game a lot of militant vegetarians play) then I'd rather have factory farming. If someone can come up with an economically sound way to raise livestock, then I'm all on board. I'm not in love with factory farming. But I'm not going to shun meat because the conditions are inhumane. You might be able to afford fancy meat but not everyone can.

This kind of comment reminds me that I do feel pretty morally good about my decision to become a vegetarian.

Have you heard about bile bears? And how they kill themselves when they manage to scape their cages?

Keeping them in tiny pens for whatever reason is extreme torture for them, really, and humans can consume more than meat, so it's not necessary to produce as much as possible by torturing them in such a way.

What do you think of the argument that meat from factory-farmed animals poses health risks for humans due to such factors as disease caused by overcrowding, overuse of antibiotics and consequential antibiotic resistance that can affect human as well as animal populations, stress hormones in the meat that can negatively affect those who eat it, etc.? It's not just that it's bad for the animals, it's bad for us too.

That argument holds more weight with me than the fact that it affects animals. As I said, I'm not married to the idea of factory farming. I just don't dislike it on the grounds that it's not good for animals.

I don't think animals should be tortured but I am okay with industrial farming and animal testing.

Most industrial farming practices are legit close to torture though. And eating lots of meat for super cheap prices is not a human necessity.

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