fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3061 ]

[ SECRET POST #3061 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3061 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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11. [SPOILERS for Avengers: Age of Ultron]

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12. [SPOILERS for Avengers: Age of Ultron]

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13. [SPOILERS for Rusty and Co.]

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14. [SPOILERS for iZombie]

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15. [SPOILERS for Orphan Black]

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16. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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17. [WARNING for violence/assault?]

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18. [WARNING for disturbing imagery/gore]

[Spec Ops: The Line]

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19. [WARNING for child abuse/parental abuse]

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20. [WARNING for rape]

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All the suicide threads of late have got me thinking. I think suicide ought to be a human right, and that we ought to provide safe suicide spaces. Some people are just going to want to do it, and forcing them to do it alone or in unsafe spaces where their actions can affect others who did not sign up for dealing with it is just cruel. By all means put counsellors and advisers of all sorts in the assisted suicide centres, but if someone really wants to do it, then they should be allowed to do it somewhere comfortable and peaceable with a painless drug. Somewhere with a little bit of garden, and maybe a pond to look out over and a sofa to lie on. It is just the humane thing to do.

If it were possible without opening it up too much to people who aren't mentally competent to take that decision, I'd agree.

That depends on how you are measuring mental competence surely, are you going with the circular "if you want to commit suicide, you are obviously not competent" marker? Because that is what a centre of that sort needs to avoid, that is the demographic most likely to go do it somewhere cold and dark and lonely. People with severe depression don't need someone to raise more barriers, they just want an easeful death to get away from an increasingly hostile and judgemental world. Throw up a barrier and it just subjects them to more pain.

Depression is the disease where wanting to kill yourself is the effect the disease has on you. It's also not some kind of rare and nasty disease with zero treatment available. If such suicide centers existed it's basically sending the message that killing yourself is the best thing to do, and it's incredibly fucked up.

Also lol at depressed people making rational decisions.

You'd prefer people with depression live in misery and die alone and in physical pain then?

Re: TW for talk of assisted suicide

(Anonymous) - 2015-05-23 00:43 (UTC) - Expand

Re: TW for talk of assisted suicide

(Anonymous) - 2015-05-23 00:46 (UTC) - Expand

Yep, this.

Switzerland has something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitas_(assisted_dying_organisation)

Although it has to be said, there are problems. Particularly with people who don't have physical illnesses and being situated in industrial areas. It is a good start though.

My problem is before jumping to any assisted suicide, or making it a human right, I'd like to see the mental health care need to be revised and upgraded for everyone everywhere. I know personally it seem really dim to me because I can't get the mental health care I need and deserve. And I say this as someone with insurance, so I know there are others far worse off than me. They make it hard for everyone to get care, they make you jump through hoops and if you have no money you don't get decent help, there is still a lot of stigmas about mental health care and mental disorders, etc. There is so much work that need to be done there before exploring the assisted suicide options and legalization.

But I do believe it should be a persons rights, and I can see the benefits of the kind of set up you are talking about. I also think it would be beneficial to families and friends of the person if they knew the died in a peaceful way, as mother suicide methods are painful and long. It could also set up a way for the families and friends to receive therapy themselves as they wen through the process, knowing the person would die and help them transition through that grieving period.

^other suicide methods.

JFC can't type, so many mistakes I can't take back.

I agree with most of this. There is such an argument about "death with dignity", when, in many cases, people are not given the option or resources for a "life with dignity" and this affects both physical and mental lives. I also worry about this in places that base care on insurance and the thoughts of medical coercion; if assisted suicide would be preferable to the social and economic constraints/pressures affecting the individual and their loved ones. (I'm in the same boat with being unable to afford mental health services and it really feels hopeless sometimes.) Many pressures of assisted suicide also stem from societal views that ignore the realities of interdependence and demonize pain, with skewed, often overly-medicalized views on what actually constitutes "quality of life". It is easier to remove people who have already been marginalized than for society to reevaluate and change core values and practices.

That said, in a very far away idealized world where people were given rights and information from multiple sources, I think I would be for people being given autonomy and resources for themselves and family members to end their own lives. But that world is so far away from the current reality that I can't be in full support.

I live in a country with legal euthanasia (in very outlined cases) and I'm all for it, if it's done for terminal patients, or people who will forever suffer and state clearly and repeatedly that this is what they want.

However,I have a lot of issues with opening this to people who are mentally ill - especially, if curably so.

The thing is there, that some mental issues specifically impair your judgment to make your decision. Obviously it's a fine line, and you can't treat mentally people like they have no gency over their life - but fact is, it really really does cloud your judgement.

And I sad this as someone who was suicidal...assisting suicide in people with say, depression, makes me really, really uncomfortable because they might feel totally differently 2 years later. hell they might feel totally differently 2 months later.

Or when denied help might have to go kill themselves in a more painful and public way. Sorry those people are the people who need these services the most.

I honestly just can't agree with that.

With any luck (and i know the won't see it that way at the time) they will be bad at killing themselves, or not find the means to do so.The vast majority of first-time suicide attempts fail. At the very least, if buys time for those that CAN get better.

I can sort of understand for people who might have tried combating depression for 10, 20 and don't see it getting better - because then it is tantamount to a chronic illness.

But someone who's had it for months, or one or two years? And hits rock bottom for a few months?

No, I feel that would be a terrible idea.

Then you are just inflicting pain on an already vulnerable person, including possible horrific scarring and the possibility of them also traumatizing someone else because they could not get the help they wanted because you felt they should want something else. It might be hard, but those people who yearn so desperately to leave this world behind are the people who need it more than the terminally ill ones. Those are the ones you hurt the most by denying them it in the hope they magically get better. Depression rarely goes away.

Re: TW for talk of assisted suicide

kallanda_lee - 2015-05-23 00:41 (UTC) - Expand

Re: TW for talk of assisted suicide

(Anonymous) - 2015-05-23 00:49 (UTC) - Expand

Re: TW for talk of assisted suicide

kallanda_lee - 2015-05-23 01:01 (UTC) - Expand

This. I have friends who were depressed to the point of being suicidal. Now that they've gotten treatment for it, they realize just how incredibly warped their mindset had become because of the depression. All of them are glad that they didn't go through with it - they're living happy, fulfilling lives now and have things that they're looking forward to. When they were depressed, they thought those things would never be possible for them, but obviously they were wrong.

Yes, once you get into the line of thinking of "this can never get better" the suicide seems to sound sensible - only our original premise, that it never can get better, is just blatantly wrong.

If it really was a case of only the people who are just going to want to do it, in a vacuum, this wouldn't be completely out of the question. But the potential for abuse is just way, way, way, way too high.

On a basic level, suicide is not correct human behavior. In order to be correct, there has to be some extenuating circumstances, like terminal illness or a condition (psychological, physical, cognitive) that destroys that person's quality of life as they define it. Depression and other mental illness can really screw up a person's judgement, and so can guilt, manipulation, etc, surrounding family members and other people or entities who may want that person to die or who will be better off if that person dies.

Personally, though, I think if someone has stipulated in a will that they absolutely do not want to be alive if they sustain major brain damage that requires them to be institutionalized and/or cared for 24/7 for the rest of their life because they can't make decisions for themselves, they should be able to kill themselves or be killed (e.g., the ending of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest type of thing). I know that's what I would want. I haven't asked anyone to please murder me if this happens to me, because they could get in trouble for that and I don't want them to either get in trouble or feel guilty for not doing it because they're afraid of getting into trouble.

Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding something, but I thought living wills allowed for that.

only if they're on actual life support machines iirc. I believe the type of situation she's describing is someone who needs constant supervision and care but isn't actually being kept alive by machines

What the above anon said.

Obviously, not all people are as horrified by this prospect as I am, nor does this make people who are like this any less of a person, but it is unpalatable to me.

Edited 2015-05-23 01:31 (UTC)

Putting aside the legal nightmares of making it an all access facility (example: father with 2 children under five, while taking an antidepressant for the first time, has a psychotic episode and goes to one of your centers. Widow sues.) who the fuck would pay for this? because I promise you any politican who backed this might well be recalled by their next election.

The problem is many suicides are not loners. There will inevitably be people who "did not sign up for dealing with it" left in their wake. And your system gives them a concrete entity to hate for it. Imagine everything people have problems with in abortion clinics but now huge swarths of EVERY side stand in opposition.

Edited 2015-05-23 02:32 (UTC)

Exactly. Suicide just doesn't exist in a vacuum.

And those left behind by a suicide are frequently at risk for PTSD and for suicide themselves.

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