Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-01-20 06:04 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-01-20 06:04 pm
[ SECRET POST #380 ]
⌈ Secret Post #380 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
↓ This is why you probably won't have to worry about 100 secrets a post fdhfjh
Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 250 secrets from Secret Submission Post #055.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] too big, [ 1 2 ] repeats, [ 1 ] comment with no link.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, January 21st, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 23
I said looks, not clothes.
If a boy looks the same, and don't give me culture bullshit as plenty of anime boys have long hair, acts the same, and has the same position in the story...
Why does he have a different implication than a female version of him?
I think you're grasping at straws here to justify hating female characters. Or maybe you're bad at elaborating, however... Most females get a bad rap in a the anime culture, and it's really hard to pinpoint why, as apparently, you can't create a perfect enough girl for most anime and video gamers who are girls.
The complaints are usually: "Too fanservicey! Too homely! Too nice! Too bitchy! Too blah! Too much of a Mary Sue!"
Whereas if the female characters presented simply had a penis, they would get less pointless hate.
A prime example of such a character is the one in my icon, Zelos Wilder. By sheer stroke of fate, he was made as a boy, despite having so many features I consider girly. Personally, I don't think it would have been so bad if he'd been a girl, but at the same time, I recognize that he probably would not have been anywhere near as popular if he were.
Just a thought.
Re: 23
Most people hate on the females for having they hate on them for having weak, flat personalities. And I don't necessarily mean that the character is weak, I mean the person creatiny them made a weak concept. The girl who ONLY can kick ass....is a weak personality. If she falls into one of the neat little sterotypes anime has so often...the sweet homemaker, the big breasted butt kicker, the "Cutie"...not that that can be part of who she has, but there should be MUCH more there. I can give you good and bad example till the cows come home, but anyone who watches anime knows 'em (Hello Oh! My Goddess!)
A female should not be flat and capable to be described in 2 sentences. If she's "too anything", yeah, it's bad. That's true for all characters. It's why anyone with two brains cells probably isn't fond of Shuichi from Gravitation. Females, in anime fandom, just get hit with it a lot more, mainly because there's a lot more flat females in anime, or there were. The hate isn't always "pointless" despite what you may think.
And, as for the clothes things, you CHOOSE what you wear. If someone CHOOSE to run around in their underwear, it shows something about them, about their personality. If they CHOOSE to cover every inch of flesh, it shows another...clothing is a character trait. A boy dressing in a dress means he chooses to go against the norms for whatever reason (Hello ParaKiss's Isabella~)
Bridget from Guilty Gear is a perfect example. If Bridget was a GIRL he would be a very different character. It might not have changed the game or anything, but it'd change him.
If a male is a submissive pansy ass, it means something different then if a female is a submissive pansy ass. It's not as simple as "Boys in anime have long hair too!" That's not the point. The point is clearly going over your head. A culture sets standards for a sex, and the way the character, in their canon's reacts to those standards is a reflection of their character.
If you took a disliked female and gave them a penis, they'd just be a girl with a dick. Doesn't matter if it's Hinata or Tifa or Rinoa (From what it sounds like, Boy!Rinoa IS Shuichi, and plenty of people hate him. But IDK that fandom well), or whatever...you can't just change their sex. Sexual identity is part of a character, it's not interchangeable that easy with most characters.
Re: 23
And for reference, Rinoa is the "Even though I can't really fight, and have no special powers that I'm aware of, I'll just go and defeat the all-powerful sorceress all by my self! I'm sure there won't be any problems!" type of character that drives me mad.
I mean, when male characters go to face a big evil, it's usually to overcome it, or to have a big, important realisation about themselves/the plot/the world/whatever. When a female character does it, it's generally to move male characters' personality/storyline forward.
Really, it's why I still stand by the statement that there are almost no female charcters that are as good as the males, even now. They might not all be submissive and nurturing/caring anymore, but they're usually just as flat and uninteresting, completely static, and with no character development.
Re: 23
I think my entire point for why females are so hated was missed. Because a lot of the "flat" personalities that are dissed aren't that flat at all. And it sounds like both of you are holding the male characters on a higher platform than female characters.
Or maybe it's reversed, and that's why no one likes the female characters.
And, as far as I know, in the Gravitation fandom, Shuichi is loved. :/
Re: 23
Anyway, my main point was that female characters get very little development, and that's why they're less interesting. Yeah, male characters can start out just as flat, but they generally grow throughout the series.
I think I had an example, yes? The difference in how similar situations are handled for male and female characters annoys me like nothing else.
I mean, there are lots of female characters that I love; pretty much everybody in Utena,Princess Tutu, Slayers, xxxHolic, Tsubasa, and FMA for example. It's a lot harder to find good ones in shonen manga and video games, where they tend to be reduced to plot robots (though I thought the female characters in FFXII where really good).
Re: 23
And if Shuichi has some big evil to fight, I'm sure he'd do that too.I do think it's getting better, slowly but surely, especially if you know which animes to look for. But yeah, it is hard to find females that live up to the males, which is just SAD. Where are the female role models? Even when you have females people LIKE a lot of times they're not given the screen time they deserve, or they're liked AFTER the male character. How many people have a female listed as their top top favorite? I know I adore tons of females in Naruto, but only ones even in my top 5.
Oy, I'm sounding very feminist, but yeah.
Re: 23
I loved Utena for precisely that reason: heroic storyline (well... among other things XD), but female protagonist. And she was given the same amount of development and growth as a male character would have!
Re: 23
(Anonymous) 2008-01-21 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)If you think this is more of a case with female anime characters than male, you fall into one of the following:
1) You haven't seen much anime, or the anime you watch it biased in genre or target group.
2) You're biased against female characters in anime and judge them on different criteria, not different in type (as you argue above), but different in degree (namely harder).
If a male is a submissive pansy ass, it means something different then if a female is a submissive pansy ass.
Yes, it means that in your world view, men are allowed to be pansy asses without being described as "a weak, flat character" while women are not. Why else would you argue that is a character can be summed up in one sentence that's bad -- and them bring up this example to implicitly (not explicitly, I never said you said this explicitly, so please refrain from the "I never said that" excuse) state that male characters can be good characters even if they can be described in less than one sentence, as you yourself did here.
Sorry, I call bullshit. I'm not saying everyone has to love every female character ever created, but in my view of fandom, it's fact that females are judged on a much harsher basis than males. You're a prime example.
Re: 23
And yes, males have sterotypes to. However, as a general rule, males get more attention, as they're usually bigger characters, and they also have more categories of character types to fall into. So they both have a more varied start of what type they are, and get more fleshed out so they aren't JUST the stereotype. Japan is a male dominated society, and it shows in their pop culture. It's not something limited to anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_stock_characters), it just something that happens in fiction, but I think, in general, from the way fandom reacts, the stock females Japanese people like (Moe, Yamato Nadeshiko) are NOT the same stock females American girl will relate to. There's a huge cultural gap there. Anime is a genre that has a higher ratio of what would be considered weak characters by most western stereotypes. Just like romance novels have a higher standard of mary sues and flat males.
Now part of the problem here is you are trying to combine two of my points that are not in actuality combined.
Point a) A female character who acts like a male characters is not alike.
b) Flat characters are not good.
I did not say I'd like or dislike the pansy ass male, nor did I say I'd like or dislike the pansy ass female. I just said they'd be different characters with different motivations. I quiet like both Hinata and Obito from Naruto, and they're both "weak" people, but handled well. If the male was a BAD pansy ass character, I would dislike him just as much as I disliked the bad pansy ass female. Being a pansy ass=/=being a bad character. In fact I listed a bad male example, and said "If she's "too anything", yeah, it's bad. That's true for all characters."
So um...learn to read? Since you seem to have fail reading skills, let me sum up: Flat characters are bad.
And on a TOTALLY DIFFERENT POINT boys=/=girls.
And if I simply judged females harder then males, why is anime the only thing I'm into where the females fail to measure up? Oh, sure, here and there a female fails in all my other fictional interest but in general I'm more female oriented then male. So um...yeah. Logic does not compute. I call defensive assumption making BS.