fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3080 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3080 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dead Poets Society]

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[Tobey Macguire]

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[Billy Connolly]

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(Marvel Cinematic Universe/Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.l.D.)

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[Love Live]

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[Life is Strange]

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(Hysterical Literature/Walt Whitman)

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 032 secrets from Secret Submission Post #440.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What does 'real ingrained identity' mean in this context in relation to 'gender queer'. And it's everyones business if it hurts the LGBT movement, or indeed if it isn't true or is a harmful idea that impacts the way we conceptualise certain things.

I fail to see how it's actually hurting the LGBT movement. And it's not my business to go harassing genderqueer people and tell them to start calling themselves girls or guys, that's fucking stupid not to mention rude.

By "real ingrained identity" I mean something that lasts past the common questioning period a lot of people have in their teens/early twenties when they're trying to figure out who they are. Something settled upon.

Right I follow what you mean by ingrained identity, but I'm thinking more of specifically how being gender queer is part of their self conceptualisation. Either they are dysphoric, or they're merely expressing the infinite complexity of human experience. Simply because you transgress the gendered standards imposed upon you doesn't mean that you are no longer the sex or gender you're born in. It simply means that those essentialist standards are nonsense (and in need of smashing). Which is probably my biggest issue with it, it creates an incredibly essetialist standard where the slightest deviation from some platonic form of 'woman' means you must be part man.

Though if we're talking personal experience we could extent that. I don't think I've ever 'felt' like a man. I recognise and understand that I am and the impact it has upon those around me but to my self of identity it's not central. So when someone talks about 'feeling' like a man I literally fail to comprehend what specifically they mean by that.

That last bit--it's kind of the same to me and "feeling" like a woman, at least more of the time. It's just kind of there. But if I had dysphoria I bet that would be a much bigger deal. I guess it's just the sort of thing that'll always be outside our experience.

As for your first paragraph: I am really concerned with these increasingly essentialist standards! However I'm afraid we're approaching it from the wrong direction if we try to tackle that by attacking the concept of being genderqueer. I already said I think real identities outside the traditional male/female binary exist. But on top of that, we'd be attacking the victims of this messed up system rather than actually fixing that system.

It would be like looking at young girls with messed up body images because of our weird culture and deciding to fix that by yelling at them for having messed up body images. They aren't the problem.

To your last point: generally speaking, when your internal gender identity matches up with your body and how you're perceived, it's something that you're able to take completely for granted. It becomes invisible. People who experience that very strong feeling of being one or the other are people who've been confronted with a strong disconnect, whether it be physical or social.

Either you're encountering a lot of stupid, or you're constructing a fairly big strawman there. Quite possibly a fair bit of both.

But I'm fairly old-fashioned in that an ideal world for nonbinary people would have liberal gender for everyone who wants it. It's called gender plurality where manhood and womanhood are self-constructed, and some people construct something else entirely.

That would be beautiful.

Another answer: human beings are so fucking diverse in gender expression that I find it difficult NOT to believe that there are a lot of people who don't really fit into either broad category. Historically examples of these people exist. Furthermore, I think this is okay. I don't see how attacking them solves anything.

I'm a bit concerned about kids on tumblr saying they're "genderqueer" or any number of gender-neutral identities without really showing evidence of disphoria. However I also acknowledge that i'm not in their head.

Well, the concept is older than those kids. Quite literally in many cases. (Literally literally.)

A persistent sense of self as none of the above and significant dissonance with being identified with a masculine or feminine gender. There's gender non-conforming, and there's genderqueer/nonbinary.

But if you want my opinion on what hurts the LGBT movement, I'd say the biggest players there are the "respectable" twinks and suits who have no problems with attacking nonconforming, genderqueer, and nonbinary people for the sake of political respectability.

I'm sorry I just pictured a board meeting of The Respectable Twinks And Suits and I literally cracked up.

But yeah I agree with you pretty much entirely. I think there are a small but loud group of people in the nonbinary+ community who act like utter assholes and hinder progress, but I think they'd be assholes regardless. Activism often attracts assholes. If it wasn't this movement it'd be something else.

What is a respectable twink or suit? Or what do you mean by respectable? I've never heard the phrase before

People who integrate into business culture and make a big deal out of saying that people who don't are dragging them down.

So like the gay equivalent of a rich black person who tries to differentiate between "people who are black" and "niggers"?

Edited 2015-06-11 01:38 (UTC)

Is this a porn?

Respectable Twinks and Suits.com

I googled that and was disappointed

LMAO for a second I thought that was Raul Esparza on the left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics

I've never heard of this before, thank you

[ SECRET POST #3080 ]

Re: You're an asshole and probably a bigot, but:

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Re: You're an asshole and probably a bigot, but:

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