fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3111 ]

[ SECRET POST #3111 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3111 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Peaky Blinders - not a repeat]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 067 secrets from Secret Submission Post #445.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Kaijin is correct in saying that the DC movies are grimdark, though.

I'm not disputing that! I never disputed that! I even acknowledged that elsewhere in this thread! They're so fucking po-faced, I actually partially blame them for the majority of media aimed at males 18-34 being serious as a heart attack with an emphasis on "gritty realism" while being dull as dishwater. This was never actually a matter of debate.

What I am saying (once again) is the movies are made by WB (and more to the point, written by David Goyer,) not DC themselves. DC might be peripherally involved, it might be DC characters, but DC staff do not really have a major role in the development of these films and how they are marketed -- that's all WB's doing, and it's largely WB mandate that drives the overly serious tone to a lot of the licensed material like the movies and games.

The question, ultimately, is this: are the DC comics higher or more legitimate or 'realer' in status than the DC movies or the DC animated series? And I think there's reasonable answers on both sides.

That's a pretty loaded question.

In the long run, the comics are important -- after all, without them and the characters created for them, we wouldn't have any of the movies or cartoons or games or whatever. But they're not that important. What's important is not tarring the entirety of DC -- comics, licensed material, etc. -- with the same brush because WB doesn't know how to make a superhero film, keeps hiring the same shitty writer and director, and utterly disregards Marvel's formula for a successful movie franchise. I'd say the same thing about the Arkham games and their problem with sexism, which I'm pretty sure is mostly due to Rocksteady as a different studio did Arkham Origins and that was much less problematic.

It's completely understandable for someone to look at the movies and think, "Oh, DC is just so dull and stone-faced and grim." If I didn't know the first thing about comics, I'd think the same way. But it's wrong. All I am trying to do is say, "please don't disregard DC as a whole just because their movies are crap." Kaijin doesn't have to read the comics. She doesn't have to play the games. She doesn't have to do any of that shit. All I'm asking is that she -- and others -- please take into account that the primary problem with the movies is WB, not DC.

I really don't understand why it's okay to defend a fandom and correct misconceptions except when it's DC.

I mean, I'm not mad about it, and I don't think there's any malice or anything, it's just sort of a frustrating thing I guess.

I do think there's a difference in understanding, at least from this comment, because it seems like when you hear or say 'DC', what you have in mind is the specific comics company DC that puts out certain comic books. Whereas I think a lot of people when they hear or say 'DC' have in mind something like the totality of stories told about this set of characters, settings, etc. Right?

And so I think maybe there's this fault line where it's easy for people to read you as saying that only the comic books are actually DC, or whatever, when in fact what you're trying to say seems to be more along the lines that the movies aren't the only thing that makes up DC.

And it's all just a big ol' mess.

In the end that's not even really the problem here. The problem I have with this thread is I was just trying to explain that it wasn't DC and all I get is "it's DC to me" as if that's the end of it when it's not and it's objectively, factually wrong. That's like trying to claim that Marvel is somehow responsible for Star Wars because they're both owned by Disney.

It's like all those people who gets corrected on their criticisms of something and instead of saying "oh, huh, well okay, I had my facts wrong" they just stick their fingers in their ears and repeat their initial criticisms. It's very frustrating to deal with people like that.

I guess it seems to me that saying "It's DC to me" isn't even wrong, though. Because that is DC (in the sense of being about the same characters) even though it's made by a separate creative entity from DC the comic company.

Like, that seems to me to be a reasonable position to take. I would feel the same way if someone said that about Marvel - even if they said it about the movies that weren't actually made by Marvel Film Studios.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore facts. All I'm saying.

I guess I don't see where anyone was ever ignoring facts.

Assuming that Kaijin, when she made the original post, did not mean that DC the comic book company was responsible for the creative content of the movies. Which I don't think she did, in context, and which I don't think there's any particular reason for her to have done. Assuming that Kaijin wasn't starting this out by making a judgment about the comic book publishing company DC, I don't see who's ignoring facts.

That's absolutely what she did, and I understand WHY, as it's a reasonable assumption to make that DC is somehow responsible for the creation of the movies and not WB. But that doesn't mean you get to insist that's still the case when someone tells you it's not.

I was ignoring most of this because I don't care. But..."it's DC to me".

What I am trying to tell you is that you shouldn't let the movies reflect on the comics because WB and DC have very different approaches to the characters.

I am not letting the movies reflect on the comics. I don't care about the comics. I care about the movies which, regardless of how much you don't want to associate with DC, are part of DC.

when it's not and it's objectively, factually wrong.
It is my opinion of DC. Hell, there are probably fans of DC comics who consider DC to be dark and gritty.

That's like trying to claim that Marvel is somehow responsible for Star Wars because they're both owned by Disney.
????

It's like all those people who gets corrected on their criticisms of something and instead of saying "oh, huh, well okay, I had my facts wrong" they just stick their fingers in their ears and repeat their initial criticisms.
It's my opinion of how I view DC based on their movies. How are my facts wrong? There are not even any facts! They are opinions based on my experiences.

Your opinion is objectively, factually wrong. End of. I tried to explain it to you and you're just going LA LA LA IT'S MY OPINION. And now you're just telling me there aren't any facts? Fuck this conversation and fuck your willful ignorance. I'm out.

Edited 2015-07-12 04:13 (UTC)

okay

take all the parts where Kaijin's post says 'DC' and substitute 'the DC shared characters, universes, and stories'

is it still 'objectively, factually wrong'

That just makes it even more wrong!

how is 'in my experience, the stories told using the DC characters are too grim and gritty' objectively wrong

Because her experience is only with the movies. I mean, I get that. I understand that position. I understand how someone could come to that position. That's not even the problem here. The problem is when someone tells you "that's just the movies though and DC didn't make those" and the immediate response is IT'S STILL DC TO ME as if your opinion and experience is somehow greater than stuff like context and facts.

I could say in my experience evolution is a myth because I've never seen a man evolve from an ape. Does that mean my opinion is somehow more valuable than 200+ years of science and research?

the movies are part of dc though. I get that WB has most creative input, but that doesn't make them NOT DC.

No, it makes them WB movies with the DC logo on because it uses DC characters, which WB technically owns because they own DC. This isn't that hard to understand.

Edited 2015-07-12 04:28 (UTC)

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