fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #391 ]

[ SECRET POST #391 ]

⌈ Secret Post #391 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 75 secrets from Secret Submission Post #056.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Friday, February 1st, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I would just like to say, I support your view of Vayne. ♥ I don't think he is psychotic at all. That's it~ :)

...Just curious, did we play the same game?

To quote sasara_cat, from where I can't exactly remember:

"Delusions of grandeur and devious plans to become the next dynast king are listed under batshit in my dictionary when I last checked. The Archadian Senate and his own father have some serious doubts about Vayne too.

Even if there is a glimmer of sanity in his mind, the crimes he commits go well beyond "doing what he feels is necessary to save his country:" (1) Secretly planning to overthrow a government that is signing a peace treaty of surrender; (2) fratricide in order to frame a senator and use that to suspend the senate in order to create a dictatorship (while also making sure that judges who question you are killed and pull psychological games on other judges to instill them with fear); (3) Vayne's involvement in having Zecht & Dr. Cid test the Midlight Shard which nuked Nabudis, yet Vayne doesn't stop his quest for Deifacted Nethicite and instead considers it a test of its powers. If that isn't enough, (4) the Ultimania Omega also states that Vayne secretly provoked a civil war in Nabradia in order to fake a reason to invade. The man is a power hungry psychopath with zero compassion for the people of Ivalice and he flat out uses and abuses the judge magisters who keep him in power."

... Please tell me what of all this falls under political necessity.

It doesn't fall under political necessity, people just are all OMGVAYNEISCUTE!!!111!! like they are about every FF Villain no matter how nasty they are ( I mean Jesus look at Sephiroth's following,possessed or no he was a mass murderer). I'm a fan of Vayne, but I see that he's crazy. Maybe these people have a version of the game where Vayne makes all his plans in his Hello Kitty footy pajamas, and cries sooooo many tears because he has to cause wars to further the Archadian war machine.

Yes, we did play the same game.

And sorry, I really don't feel like going into a huge debate about whether someone's interpretation of him was that he was an evil psycho. But did you happen to miss the whole thing where he was trying to free the world from the Occuria? That was his main goal; his last words were talking about history being in man's hands again. I don't really qualify that as evil. He even says in a conversation with Cid that if he'd had more time, he wouldn't have used such measures as war to achieve his ends. I think he is a victim of the dirtiness of politics and was in a position to make a few tough decisions. Also, he did care about Larsa enough that he avoided confronting him as much as he could, probably because of his two brothers that were killed by him at his father's command, no less.

As for killing his own father, I see that he did it because the Senate and the Emperor were going to have Larsa become the next Emperor. If that were so, he wouldn't have the power he thought he needed to carry out his plans. In doing this, it also prevented him from having to kill Larsa should his father eventually die of the illness he was suffering from. Because really, if he'd wanted to become the successor all along, he would have killed Larsa the moment he killed his other two brothers.

But anyway. I apologize for my scattered thoughts. However, it's useless for me to explain myself to you like it is for you to explain yourself to me. And no, I am not one of those fans who are all "omg vayne is hot" because I'm definitely not a shallow moron like that. I just saw it a different way is all.

Hey, no problem.

I feel that there's only so far that political necessity goes, and it's a very fine line between that and insanity. I feel that Vayne steps over that line and into insanity many a time.

Most notably is the scene in the game where Vayne is attempting to off Ashe and her party simply so Larsa can become a stronger man/ruler.

Just my opinion, though.

Mmm, I do know exactly what you're saying and where you are coming from. I think that a lot of Vayne's actions are sort of double-edged in that they hurt and, for lack of a better word, "help" someone at the same time, the help mostly having to do with Larsa. That scene you mentioned, I don't think he ever seriously considered the possibility that Larsa would turn against him finally. But when he did, it pretty much set them apart permanently.

Evil though... When I think of evil, in terms of FF games, I think of Sephiroth or Seymour or Kefka. Those three tie in along with insanity as well. Evil's a strong word to me, and I'm not trying to say Vayne was good or anything, because he was definitely the villain. Just perhaps a bit more, I dunno, sympathetic than the other FF villains? I'm not exactly sure how to put it really.

And JESUS do I like to talk. This is all just my opinion as well, aha. But differing opinions are fine though~ Makes things interesting. :)

Since some of my comments in a random conversation elsewhere got interjected into this, I figure I might as well join in. ;)

I think Vayne is a very interesting antagonist (much more interesting than Kefka who is just crazy-evil in my book). We get a very good look into why Vayne is doing what he is doing. It comes down to a moral issue: do the ends always justify the means? Vayne's actions are comparable to some of the worst war mongering dictators in the 20th century history. That's one big fatass strike against him. Yet, FF XII's story is nuanced and explores all of the grey areas rather than being just pure good v. evil story. As part of that, we get to see what motivates Vayne and why he does what he does, and why *he* thinks that his actions are logical.

I agree that Vayne is not a purely insane, evil, cackling bastard who just smites things for the hell of it because he's cccrrrrrrraaaaaazzzyyy as a loon. No, the man has a pretty strong sense of internal logical. But, I'd be hard pressed to say that Vayne does *not* suffer from delusions of grandeur and a healthy dose of megalomania.

In our world he would be facing an international court for crimes against humanity. In his world, well, let's just say I would not have wanted to be a citizen of Nabradia....

Forgot to say: Regarding the word "evil," it all depends on how black and white we each feel about what is EVIL and what isn't.

My online dictionary says "profoundly immoral and malevolent." I still stand behind my comment that lady_venn posted above that no matter what Vayne's intentions might have been (for the greater good or for selfishness), the 4 things I listed are all examples of profoundly immoral and malevolent behavior.

Just throwing my $.02 in, since we seem to be having a rational discussion here...

I find Vayne a fascinating, multi-layered character. And I love him that way. But I also think that he is both evil and at least mildly insane. He may have good intentions, at least in part, but his methods make him evil in my book. He has no problem with starting a war guaranteed to wipe out thousands if not millions of people, because he thinks that it's necessary so that the world may be freed from the Occuria. Do I think he's right that the Occuria should be told where to go? Absolutely. But that doesn't excuse his actions.

All the complex plots, the wholesale slaughter, the serial mindfuckery...as he says himself, that is his idea of necessity. And that says to me that he is both evil and insane, because it *isn't* necessary (witness the fact that by the end of the game the Occuria have been effectively given the boot without Ivalice War I), but he has the kind of mindset that views it as necessary. He really does seem to think that murder is the only answer. To me, that qualifies as insane.

In my opinion, intentions do not make a person evil. Actions make a person evil. And Vayne's actions make him evil in my book. He leaves a trail of bodies a mile wide behind him, and sees nothing wrong with slaughtering thousands for the "greater good". Historical consensus says: people who do that are evil.

Agreed on all points, especially your actions versus intentions point.

I like the idea of Vayne's sanity slowly slipping bit by bit by bit. He remains "logical" and "intelligent" but his means for judging the rightness or wrongness of actions become more and more convoluted as he tries to justify the increasingly more horrible things that he does. Eventually, he no longer has sound capacity for judgment and thus, he has slipped into being a complete megalomaniac and can be rightfully judged as insane..

I forgot to put in my list a 5th thing: killing his two older brothers. In the Ultimania it says that when Vayne was 16 (Larsa would be 1), Vayne executed his two older brothers because they rebelled against the Empire and that created a breach in trust between Vayne and Gramis. If Gramis wasn't happy about it ... well, it does sound like Vayne *might* have taken matters into his own hands rather than the executions being decided by an official trial. Perhaps that was one of the first key events that made Vayne "reorganize" his views of right and wrong in order to live with himself? And then it is just a downward spiral once Dr. Cid meets Venat (5 years later) and turns to Vayne to help implement Venat's plans. The more Vayne tries to justify his actions, the further he slips into insanity.

Luv your Vayne icon. ;)

Well then, you very well took the words out of my mouth (quite elegantly I might add). I think that one's view of Vayne truly is determined with the concept of the ends justifying the means. Also, I do agree that Vayne, somewhere along the way, began to lose some sense of his morality and became a too engrossed with assimilating Ivalice into Archadia because, well, his name isn't "Vayne" for nothing. His goal of free will ended when the Suncryst was destroyed, but it was his desire to be ruler of Ivalice that did him in, in the end.

Regarding your comment below, you're absolutely right. What he did was plain out wrong, no matter how much sense it may have made to him. There is no denying they were evil actions done out of what he thought was necessary, but I cannot see Vayne as inherently evil *himself*. I'm sorry; that doesn't make much sense. My point was simply to give his reasons behind his actions, and that he was not a total psychopath bent on destruction. Even though what he does is for himself, it was not purely for himself alone in the long-run. There was something more that he wanted, although it is not enough to excuse what he did.

I'd like to say though that this discussion has been pretty fun. Discussion and not debate because, well, I agree with everything you said, pretty much. Thank you for putting into words what I could not. :)

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[ SECRET POST #391 ]

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