fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3154 ]

[ SECRET POST #3154 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3154 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's a different social construct.

Just saying something is a social construct doesn't mean you can just ignore it. Our attitude towards and understanding of trans* issues comes out of a certain understanding of the way in which gender is socially constructed and its relationship with the biologically given sex.

But you have to actually engage with the thing, you can't just say "it's socially constructed."

Of course, my point is though that I can't square how anyone would support trans people who want to change their gender but not those who want to change their race or ethnicity.

We are all assigned a gender/race/ethnicity at birth.

None of these things is objectively real in the sense that none of them would exist without society -- they're all social constructs IMPOSED on us.

Some genders/races/ethnicities are discriminated against.

My point is simply this: if someone wants to change their race or ethnicity, then it is not my business to tell them that they can or can't. No more so than if that person wants to change their gender.

There are biological components that have been tied to these constructs in every case, but this doesn't (and shouldn't) prevent trans people from transitioning so I don't see why this should be the case for race/ethnicity.

The thing that gives me pause with regards to ethnicity and race is not the biological aspect, but the cultural and especially the historical aspects of those identities.

Of course.

But culture and history can be learned.

Just as gender roles are and gender conditioning is learned.

But you can't just say "they can be learned". You need to actually go into detail and engage with the specifics of the construction.

As arguments for trans* have done.

Well yes, but I'm presuming that someone that wants to change their race would do that. Would engage with the specifics of the construction of that identity.

I'm not proposing that an anime fan can dress up in a kimono and call themselves Japanese (Jesus no…).

I'm saying that I don't think it's right to say that one social construct is immutable but the other isn't. Both were imposed on us, by the random chance of birth, without our consent.

Well yes, but I'm presuming that someone that wants to change their race would do that. Would engage with the specifics of the construction of that identity.

They havne't, really, so far. It's been more or less the equivalent of the Japanese kimono student.

I'm saying that I don't think it's right to say that one social construct is immutable but the other isn't. Both were imposed on us, by the random chance of birth, without our consent.

They weren't.

"They havne't, really, so far. It's been more or less the equivalent of the Japanese kimono student."

That same argument could be used against trans people though. I don't think it's fair to dismiss people's desire to transition race just because some people treat it as a joke.

How is race/gender identity not imposed upon us?

When you were born people treated you as a white girl or a black boy or an Asian girl or a Latino boy. Those were IMPOSED because you hardly woke up one day and consciously chose to accept those identities.

We support trans people because we say that "this person, who has been called a boy (or girl) identifies as a girl (or boy) and we should support that." And we do. We use the pronouns they ask us to for example.

Why would we not grant this treatment to people who don't identify with the race that's been imposed on them?

My point here - as it has been - is that socially constructed is not the same as arbitrary.

If you can make the same kind of analysis of what it means for a white person to identify as an Asian that you can for what it means for a girl to identify as a boy, that would be a start.

But supporting trans* people isn't just because we say "Hey, you know, whatever, you do you."

…But gender isn't arbitrary either?

For most, I imagine it's assigned based on genitalia.

There is a basis by which race is constructed, I'll give you that. But it's still socially constructed. Just as gender is.

Although, with both race and gender, the lines are blurred in a lot of cases. (Intersex people for example).

Supporting trans people means we recognize that people have the right not to be forced to accept a gender that was imposed on them that they don't identify with. I don't see why race should be different, in this regard.

I never said gender is arbitrary.

I guess my confusion lies in the fact that it seems we agree that both gender and race, while not arbitrary, are social constructs.

So why would we not support both people who don't identify with the race or gender they were assigned?

The point, I think, is that "because I feel like it" isn't a good reason. Trans people have provided very specific sets of reasons why being trans make sense. The whole other-race-identifying thing? People haven't really done that.

I mean, Rachel Dolezal did provide reasoning, but we've all collectively thrown it out and shunned her because we deemed that it didn't count. She has Black family that she relates to, she always felt disconnected from her white parentage and lineage, like it didn't fit her at all, and she identifies closely with the Black experience-- to the point of being one of the most active forces on the west coast for the advancement of civil rights, completely revitalizing the Spokane NAACP chapter.

It's very similar to trans language and experience, but we decided it didn't count. Why?

>I can't square how anyone would support trans people who want to change their gender

well clearly you don't understand much about trans issues if you'd word it this way in the first place so bye

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3154 ]

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