Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #3159 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[Knights Errant]
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03.
[HeadOn]
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04.
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05.
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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]
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07. [WARNING for rape]
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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]
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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I'm excited to rewatch season 2 for this reason! I feel like either would make sense, that Will either didn't fully realize he wanted to run away with Hannibal at the time, or that he did actually acknowledge it but was so conflicted about it that he would never have been able to. In S3 he's clearly had lots of time to think about his feelings, but in the moment he just doesn't want Hannibal to be caged. I suppose you could even say he warns Hannibal because he doesn't want Hannibal to hurt his friends, but I don't think it's just that; Will is in too deep by that point.
It's a sad commentary on Will Graham's life that the happiest he's ever been was when meeting up with the man who sent him to jail, shanked him and tried to kill his friends/colleagues. It's very telling too, just how screwed up poor Will is and how much he craves the kind of attention and understanding that only Hannibal can give him.
"You dropped your forgiveness" is such a great line, lmao. That is true...it's certainly possible Will had the same idea as Hannibal, that to completely forgive Hannibal he would have to kill him. (And again, if you take it that way it shows just how alike Hannibal and Will can be.) I guess it could also be a straightforward, "Hannibal is such a monster that if I don't kill him he's going to continue to slaughter", type thing, but again with Pazzi from earlier in the season... he doesn't even seem particularly concerned about his fate, he almost seems 'playful' when warning him.
If he would have been able to actually go through with killing Hannibal or not...we'll never know, but I'm going to say no. He could've let Dolarhyde kill Hannibal, but then again he must have known he couldn't take on Dolarhyde alone, and he wouldn't have wanted Dolarhyde to escape. But then you have to take into consideration that Will probably could've pushed Hannibal off the cliff without going over it as well, but he didn't want to because at that point he was so connected to Hannibal that it was impossible for him to separate them.
Murder husbands ARE complicated! I'm not entirely sure what to think about the saw either. Hannibal is so happy to see and connect with Will again, then he almost immediately goes straight back to "You look delicious, gonna eat you." A large part of me believes that if Will hadn't pulled the knife, Hannibal would've forgiven Will. He wouldn't have tried to kill Will again if Will hadn't acted first. If at that point Will wanted to actually 'run away with him', Hannibal would've gladly went with it; he would've let bygones be bygones. Since Will did indeed try to 'betray' him again, Hannibal feels that Will will ALWAYS do so, that he'll never be able to completely give up on his good nature, and that he has to take Will out of the picture once and for all or this will keep happening. I don't feel like he was happy about it, but it was maybe something he felt like he had to do, you know? Will had rejected him one too many times.
As for saving Will next episode, well...you know how much Hannibal cares about Will. In his own fucked up way, Will is the only thing he loves and cherishes. Seeing Will almost harmed by someone else probably infuriated him; look at his face when Dolarhyde stabbed Will in the face. If Hannibal hurts Will, well, that's one thing, but by that point I think anyone else hurting Will isn't acceptable. (Sending Dolarhyde after Will's family isn't quite the same in Hannibal's mind I think, because he orchestrated that. It still counts as his victory.) Plus, he gets to see Will take a chunk out of Mason's cook...he gets another glimpse of Will's 'potential'. I think it's one of those things where he wants Will to come to his full potential; Will is his weakness in a way, and he lets him get away with things he wouldn't from others. When it comes down to it, it's easier for him to forgive Will.
Ooo, thank you for pointing that out to me! I'm going to pay attention to that too. Also, I think you might've mentioned this at some point, but his pendulum is all but gone in s3. I think anyway. He doesn't have as much use for it in s3 anyway, but that's still very telling. I wonder how his pendulum comes into play in s2.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I was watching old interviews on Youtube, and Hugh Dancy said something about Will in S2 being torn right up until the end on Jack's plan and Hannibal's plan, and that by calling, he was perhaps trying to stop either of them and both of them. Which I can also see. Will wants to avoid all of it. But I think by S3, he's had time to think, and by the end of S3, he makes the decision he couldn't at the end of S2.
If he would have been able to actually go through with killing Hannibal or not...we'll never know, but I'm going to say no. He could've let Dolarhyde kill Hannibal
Will has problems making decisions. I think he was going to watch Dolarhyde for as long as possible (not committed to Hannibal's death either way), until something happened that forced his hand one way or the other. It really is a great image, though, Hannibal bleeding out on the floor while Dolarhyde sets up his camera and Will coolly sips his wine. Though it seemed pretty clear that Will's plan (to the extent that he had one) was to shoot Dolarhyde in the head, but Dolarhyde stabbed him first.
but again with Pazzi from earlier in the season... he doesn't even seem particularly concerned about his fate, he almost seems 'playful' when warning him.
Yeah, it's almost like 'Hannibal is so totally going to rip your guts out. lol bye.'
it's certainly possible Will had the same idea as Hannibal, that to completely forgive Hannibal he would have to kill him
I think Will did forgive Hannibal, but that his main motivation in killing Hannibal was what Chiyoh said, that if he didn't kill Hannibal, he was going to become him. Whereas Hannibal, now that he has forgiveness, seems to think that in order for HIM to forgive Will, he needs to eat him.
A large part of me believes that if Will hadn't pulled the knife, Hannibal would've forgiven Will ... Since Will did indeed try to 'betray' him again, Hannibal feels that Will will ALWAYS do so, that he'll never be able to completely give up on his good nature, and that he has to take Will out of the picture once and for all or this will keep happening.
Yeaaah, I lean this way. I think that whatever actions Hannibal was debating, Will's attempt on him just pushed him to the most extreme one. It's almost like the S2 finale all over again. If Will hadn't betrayed him, he never would have gutted him, if Will hadn't betrayed him here, he never would have taken a saw to him. And we knew he was contemplating eating Will since his conversation episodes earlier with Bedelia. But still, it was really jarring for me at the time, lol.
Seeing Will almost harmed by someone else probably infuriated him; look at his face when Dolarhyde stabbed Will in the face.
Yesssss. Even though Will was, for all Hannibal knew, standing there about to watch him die, Hannibal STILL goes crazy at someone else hurting Will. And look at his face the second he sees Dolarhyde pull the knife. He immediately looks to Will, his face like 'oh no my precious bb'. Seriously, it is.
If Hannibal hurts Will, well, that's one thing, but by that point I think anyone else hurting Will isn't acceptable. Plus, he gets to see Will take a chunk out of Mason's cook...he gets another glimpse of Will's 'potential'
And I suppose he had a little bit of time to cool down from wanting to saw into Will's head. Though I still kind of hate that it would have happened if it hadn't been for MASON of all people. But Will's small rebellious acts toward Mason and Cordell definitely make Hannibal appreciate him all over again, and of course he is infuriated if anyone else tries to hurt Will, not to mention all the horrors Mason had planned for Will. He probably would have saved Will even if Alana hadn't asked him to, if he'd been able to get free on his own.
(Sending Dolarhyde after Will's family isn't quite the same in Hannibal's mind I think, because he orchestrated that. It still counts as his victory.)
Plus, Will wasn't even at home, so there was no chance of Dolarhyde actually hurting Will. As I rewatch, I'm also keeping track of the 'murder by proxy attempts,' lol.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I need to watch more interviews. I've watched a few and thoroughly enjoyed them. Anyway, this makes perfect sense because Will looks so tired and conflicted by the end of season 2. He's being pulled in every direction and though he knows what he should want to do, his heart is not exactly where it should be. Just about any other character in any other show would be gleefully throwing Hannibal under the bus right about then, but of course Will is not any other character.
Hannibal bleeding out on the floor while Dolarhyde sets up his camera and Will coolly sips his wine.
Okay, you laughed right? I would be surprised to find someone who didn't laugh at that moment. It was such a perfect parallel to Will bleeding out on the floor in the s2 finale and Hannibal looking down on him from above. I think Will let go of a lot (not all of it, mind) of his 'anger' by the time he sits with Hannibal in the museum in the first half of the season, but then Hannibal tried to kill him again, and then when he saw Hannibal again he tried to have his family killed, and yea, a part of Will is enjoying Hannibal being the one to bleed out on the floor even though I don't think he truly wants him dead. (Knows he has to die maybe, but he wouldn't enjoy that knowledge anymore.)
I wonder how different things would have been if Will had got to shoot Dolarhyde in the head.
Yeah, it's almost like 'Hannibal is so totally going to rip your guts out. lol bye.'
I said this before, but he's the same with Bedelia. I think Will is harder to shake in general by s3... he's been through so much that the death of others might still be unpleasant, but it doesn't seem to effect him to the same extent. And he's so much more cynical that he seems almost okay with it altogether with certain people. I don't think s1 Will would've been, but he's changed a lot.
that if he didn't kill Hannibal, he was going to become him
That ties right in to the finale! That's true. (And again, says a lot about Will that Hannibal existing out in the world is so big a threat. Even if he avoids Hannibal now, I guess he knows that he'll always come back to Hannibal and that one day he won't be able to resist him.)
If Will hadn't betrayed him, he never would have gutted him, if Will hadn't betrayed him here, he never would have taken a saw to him.
Yea. Which...again, is horrifying, but to Hannibal I'm sure it makes perfect sense. He gave Will a chance to 'repent' both times and Will denied him. What the hell else is a cannibalistic serial killer supposed to do?
He immediately looks to Will, his face like 'oh no my precious bb'.
Exactly! It's the same for both of them; they can betray each other time and time again, and they'll keep caring because they can't help it. (There's also a part of me that's really amused by how fond Hannibal sounds of Dolarhyde earlier in the season, but how Hannibal being Hannibal, will quickly slice him up with absolutely no regrets (and an actual considerable amount of joy) after he comes after him (and his bf).
Is that your tumblr, btw? I didn't realize that was you, but if it is I'd like to follow you!
He probably would have saved Will even if Alana hadn't asked him to, if he'd been able to get free on his own.
Oh, I absolutely believe he wouldn't have allowed Mason or Cordell to hurt Will any further even if Alana hadn't asked. Like you said, he had calmed down by then, and plus if he had a score to settle with Will he wouldn't want anyone else to get to him. If he's hurting Will it's righteous and okay, but anyone else doing it is unacceptable because Will's fate should be in his hands. (After the s3 finale, I can't imagine Hannibal ever threatening Will again. Not seriously.)
Plus, Will wasn't even at home, so there was no chance of Dolarhyde actually hurting Will.
Yes! He didn't intend for Will to die, he just wanted Will's family out of the 'way'. They were distracting him and I'm sure in Hannibal's mind they were filling a space in Will's life that should've been occupied by Hannibal and Abigail. If Hannibal and Abigail couldn't have a 'happily ever after' with Will, no one else should be able to either.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
It was darkly hilarious. Will is just standing there coolly, a major difference to Hannibal in the S2 finale. Hannibal looks very emotional, sad and mad, as he watches Will bleeding out (from his stabbing!). That's the other thing, about Will's becoming--he's getting a lot less emotional, a lot cooler about everything, having non-reactions if you will. Much like Hannibal always has (like, 'oh dead woman on the porch, huh').
a part of Will is enjoying Hannibal being the one to bleed out on the floor even though I don't think he truly wants him dead
Yeah, it's just like a little payback. 'You made me suffer, now I watch you, isn't this fun?'
I wonder how different things would have been if Will had got to shoot Dolarhyde in the head.
He probably would have stayed torn and wouldn't have had his becoming. Though they also probably wouldn't have gone over the cliff, so... As Will said in an earlier season, guns are impersonal. Sure, shooting Hobbs messed with him, but if he's just shot Dolarhyde, I don't think he would have felt the euphoria that he felt killing him a different way.
I think Will is harder to shake in general by s3... he's been through so much that the death of others might still be unpleasant, but it doesn't seem to effect him to the same extent.
I really am going to pay attention on the rewatch of S2 exactly when Will becomes so jaded and just cool with the idea of murder that would have upset him greatly in S1. At first, it's an act to catch Hannibal, but since Will is the ultimate method actor, he really just gets in too deep where the act either becomes him or unlocks something in him. He just starts having these non-reactions to horrific things.
Is that your tumblr, btw? I didn't realize that was you, but if it is I'd like to follow you!j
It is! Follow me if you like, but I generally don't follow back. I do tumblr wrong, lol. Mainly, I just follow blogs that are 100% the thing that I'm interested in, and not blogs that are multifandom. I don't even follow people on my flist (most of them don't even know I have a tumblr). Right now, most of my fandom stuff is all Hannibal, lol.
Though you should check out my 'hannibal lol' tag, which is a collection of all the crack posts that made me laugh.
(After the s3 finale, I can't imagine Hannibal ever threatening Will again. Not seriously.)
I kind of can't either? I feel like they've been there and done that for ever how many years it's been. I think some psychological chess is still on the board, but not so much the really and truly fucking with each other. Also, Will is definitely on a level playing field now, so to speak. He's Hannibal's equal.
They were distracting him and I'm sure in Hannibal's mind they were filling a space in Will's life that should've been occupied by Hannibal and Abigail.
I saw the really creepy suggestion that the line (that I can't remember what episode it's from and this is paraphrased anyway) about a place being made for Abigail in the world meant that Hannibal manipulated Mason into getting rid of Margo and Will's child solely so that he could direct any parental feelings of Will's toward Abigail, when it was revealed that she was alive. Which is SOOOOOO fucked up, but I wouldn't put it past Hannibal.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
What I like about that moment, and this is something I only noticed after my first time seeing that scene, is that Hannibal is actually crying. There's actually a tear rolling down his face when he bends over Will and tells him to "Close your eyes and wade into the quiet of the stream". He didn't want Will to die, it broke his heart to see him hurt, but Hannibal felt it was necessary. (And if you take Will's thoughts in S3 to be fact, then Hannibal wasn't actually trying to kill him, he only wanted him injured. Doesn't make it any less wrong and horrible, but since Will wasn't coming with him...it kind of works out in a fucked up way. No one can say that Will just 'allowed' Hannibal to escape since Hannibal attacked Will too, haha. So many layers to this show.)
God, they're so (beautifully) fucked up.
That's the other thing, about Will's becoming--he's getting a lot less emotional, a lot cooler about everything, having non-reactions if you will.
IA, the longer all this goes on the colder Will becomes. The easier it becomes for him to distance himself from the pain and shock and disgust.
He probably would have stayed torn and wouldn't have had his becoming.
I think you're right, but I am curious as to how he would've dealt with Hannibal. Would he have allowed Hannibal to escape? That's what I think would end up happening, even if he held the gun on him... I don't think he would've shot him knowing that Jack didn't want him back in jail, he was going to need to die for a permanent solution, and I don't think he could kill him. (And have to live with it. In the finale...well, he doesn't even plan on living with it, and if he does, well, they're together.)
I really am going to pay attention on the rewatch of S2 exactly when Will becomes so jaded and just cool with the idea of murder that would have upset him greatly in S1.
Please do! I noticed on my rewatch that his pendulum doesn't even appear until the third episode, and he just seems generally more angry, bitter and distant to the idea of murder. (Until it becomes 'personal' with Katz and Abigail.) The way he deals with saber-tooth guy in s2 is disturbing too.
Follow me if you like, but I generally don't follow back.
That's fine! I am wayyyyyyy multifandom so I wouldn't begrudge you of that; I go through moods, and if you're a Hannibal blog it wouldn't make sense for you to follow me.
I will!
I think some psychological chess is still on the board, but not so much the really and truly fucking with each other.
Certainly! They feel beyond that now. Especially if Will is going to travel with Hannibal now (no matter the extent of Will's 'participation'), I feel like Hannibal would try to encourage Will, not threaten him. They understand each other now.
about a place being made for Abigail in the world meant that Hannibal manipulated Mason into getting rid of Margo and Will's child solely so that he could direct any parental feelings of Will's toward Abigail
Okay, what the fuck. Hannibal totally would do that, though I took the line to mean, "I saved Abigail for you; she no longer has to worry about the legal consequences of her actions, and we can leave and be a family now without worrying too much about our past lives catching up with us." (Well, that's what he DID want...before Will dumped him, lol.)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
There's actually a tear rolling down his face when he bends over Will and tells him to "Close your eyes and wade into the quiet of the stream". He didn't want Will to die, it broke his heart to see him hurt, but Hannibal felt it was necessary.
It's like his heart is actually breaking in this moment, but he still reacts like Hannibal, and the only option is violence. Though I do kind of agree that he didn't 100% intend Will to die. If he'd wanted Will dead in that moment, he would have slit his throat or cut out his heart to take with him. But, doing what Hannibal did, he also had to know there was a chance Will would die. What he did was in no way just a flesh wound. He only wanted Will sort of dead, lol. Even in that moment, he didn't do all he could have. I feel like Chilton's line is an excellent summary: "Will Graham is alive because Hannibal Lecter likes him that way."
(And have to live with it. In the finale...well, he doesn't even plan on living with it, and if he does, well, they're together.)
I saw something from either Hugh Dancy or Bryan Fuller (ugh, and I can't remember or find it again!) that said that Will was trying to kill them both because he knew there was no place left with humanity for him after that. Which totally fits into my headcanon of Will taking the plunge and then when it didn't result in death, just going with it (and not say, trying to kill himself or Hannibal again).
Especially if Will is going to travel with Hannibal now (no matter the extent of Will's 'participation'), I feel like Hannibal would try to encourage Will, not threaten him. They understand each other now.
I certainly hope so! Surely we are over the 'trying to kill each other' phase. I mean, I feel like that's too shipper-goggles on one hand (going back to the 'but he would never ~hurt Will' thing that turned out to be so so false), because after all the horrible things Hannibal has done, what makes me think that he's going to stop being horrible now? OTOH, if all his horribleness has been to get Will to this point, to 'see' the truth, and Will is finally here, well, job well done, Hanni. Now that Hannibal finally has what he wants, a Will who is a killer and a Will who is with him, surely he wouldn't want to fuck that up.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I say this every time I get into a new fandom. For a couple of months my followers probably hate the spam, lol.
But I mainly treat my Tumblr like a collection of images I want to have, instead of anything social, lol.
That's how I've always treated it too. Discussing anything on tumblr is too complicated. That and there are so many people on tumblr that singling out someone for a discussion is almost nerve-wracking for me. It's much easier to find people in an old school community.
I feel like Chilton's line is an excellent summary: "Will Graham is alive because Hannibal Lecter likes him that way."
Exactly! That's a great line. (It explains so much.) It makes sense that Hannibal doesn't actually want Will dead, but he still wants to hurt him in a major, significant way, and even though it's entirely possible that doing so might end up killing Will, he can't let him get away without payback.
because he knew there was no place left with humanity for him after that.
So Will recognized that there was no turning back beyond that point, but he still had enough goodness in him to want to stop himself (and Hannibal) before they could 'burn everything down'. It's perfect!
I mean, I feel like that's too shipper-goggles on one hand (going back to the 'but he would never ~hurt Will' thing that turned out to be so so false)
I don't even see it as shipper-goggles because I shipped them even when they were trying to kill each other, lmao, but I think it comes back to what you said about 'Been there, done that'. There's just no need for it anymore. Will should have some struggle, but if the struggle was going to be, "Hannibal and Will constantly trying to kill each other" I would want to throw my hands up and walk away because we do not need that kind of repetition. (And, again, I feel like their personal development should have moved beyond that.) Will should have moved past that now; let's not see the same Will, let's explore the different aspects of the man now that he's finally 'unlocked' them and admitted they exist.