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fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #3159 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[Knights Errant]
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03.
[HeadOn]
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04.
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05.
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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]
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07. [WARNING for rape]
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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]
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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Low ratings helped us for once, lol!
And I know in S1 interviews, Fuller described Will and Hannibal as a bromance, but that changed. But it changed slowly and organically, and even by S2, the writers were using language like 'bad breakup' describe the plot line. I don't see them going into 'love' territory as pandering, because it came out of the performance and the writing. I think Hannibal was definitely in love with Will by the end of S2, but perhaps didn't fully realize it until the kitchen bloodbath. What is it he says to Will? 'do you think you changed me like I changed you?' and Will says 'I already have.' I think Hannibal wanted to walk out of the kitchen free and easy as he'd always been, but Will had changed him somehow, made him feel all these 'inconvenient' things. Even if it didn't change Hannibal to 'good', it changed something in him that he had no control over.
And I love that in S3 when Will asked if Hannibal was in love with him, there was never any vibe of 'but we're guys!' at all. Any discomfort Will felt was at the idea of HANNIBAL being in love with him, not a man being in love with him. Nor was there any big deal made of it (much like Alana and Margo, there was never a big deal or an Orientation Announcement). In an interview, Fuller said Will was heterosexual and Hannibal was omnisexual. Obviously Hannibal is in love with Will, but I'm undecided about Will's feelings, mainly because he's all over the place, lol. Maybe that will change with a rewatch. Though I think it's possible that Will could be in love with Hannibal and not desire him sexually. I'm just not sure that I even see Will there yet. We've definitely got the 'can't live with him, can't live without him,' deeply codependent NEED of each other, but I can't tell if Will is actually in love. On one podcast that I was listening to (AfterBuzz TV reviews), they all thought Will was in love with Hannibal. Which was a bit neat, as these were paid TV reviewers, and not fans/shippers. But I think it's definitely canon that Hannibal loves Will, that it's not even open to interpretation anymore. No, he never said "I love you", but his whole story past the S2 finale was 'lover scorned', we have the Will and Bedelia conversation, we have the earlier Bedelia and Hannibal conversation ("love either pays you a visit or he doesn't") we have as close a line as possible from Hannibal ("my compassion for you is inconvenient"), and finally, we have the look on Hannibal's face when Will hugs him. That was not a platonic look but any definition of the word. You know, up to S3, I would have said that Hannibal was asexual, because even in S2, sex with Alana could have been part of his person suit (this is what people in relationships do, and he was working to blind her, etc). But then in S3, he's having sex with Bedelia, and she knows what he is, so that's obviously not for cover, and sex is something he enjoys. Though I still think he probably has a low sex drive, as what he NEEDS to do is murder, and that's where his focus lies, lol. But yeah, in light of S3, I can see omnisexual. Haha, I just typed a lot, clearly I have another post about the finale I need to make. But yeah, Hannibal is omnisexual and in love with Will. Will is heterosexual and... needs Hannibal in the worst way possible? hasn't come around to admitting he's in love with Hannibal? IDK. But I think that even if Hannibal had will as a life partner/murder partner (with occasional bloody hugs), he'd be perfectly satisfied and not need any more from their relationship.
For some reason this also reminds me of that scene in s1 where Abel Gideon is sitting at Hannibal's table, Will is having a seizure (and Hannibal is carefully checking him over) and Gideon is like, "Uh, you don't seem awfully concerned." Hannibal is just like, "Well, I did say mild."
Yes! It's like, he's my friend, he's seizing, but it's not like BAD or anything, what's the big deal? He does say to Sutcliff that they'll put out the fire in Will's brain before he really burns, and I'm weirdly inclined to believe him. A dead Will is no use to Hannibal; he just wants to use the encephalitis to speed up Will's mental break.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
That's ironic as hell.
and even by S2, the writers were using language like 'bad breakup' describe the plot line
Exactly. And especially by the S2 finale (and after), if you aren't seeing that relationship as a 'bad breakup' I'm not sure what show you're watching.
I don't see them going into 'love' territory as pandering
I don't think it was pandering in the least, because if it had been pandering it would've felt cheap and sudden, and nothing about Will and Hannibal's relationship felt inorganic or rushed; it built up over the course of the show, and even as early as s1 there was certainly affection and friendship between them. On Hannibal's part I'd go so far as to say he loved Will even before s2, though by s2 it was a deeper connection, and he maybe only realized the extent of his feelings when season 2 neared its end. (Though...he seems to keep Abigail for Will, so he may have been planning the 'family' thing for quite some time.)
I think Hannibal wanted to walk out of the kitchen free and easy as he'd always been, but Will had changed him somehow, made him feel all these 'inconvenient' things.
For sure, Hannibal wanted a life with Will and Abigail, and as far as we know he's always been on his own, he's never included anyone else in his 'plans' before. He wanted to be with Will, he wanted to have a partner, and Hannibal isn't used to feeling those things or wanting them; he isn't used to caring about someone so deeply, so I think that's how Will changed him. Hannibal killing Abigail...I think it was part to spite Will after he'd been rejected (Like, "Well, you say you've changed me, look at how much I've changed") and part him trying to 'reset' things. (The teacup and all that.) As dramatic as it sounds (and is), Hannibal had his heart broken.
Certainly with other shows they might've made a big deal about having queer characters, but that's one thing I enjoyed about Hannibal; it was presented as perfectly normal and not something to make a stink about.
Though I think it's possible that Will could be in love with Hannibal and not desire him sexually.
That's how I've felt about Will since...well, a long time. Probably at least some point in s2. Near the end of s2 even though he's 'playing' Hannibal, there's a sense of him enjoying himself. (And Hannibal's company.) He's losing himself in it a bit. Sure he's still bitter, he still knows that Hannibal is wrong and he doesn't want to be like him, but this isn't new. Will struggles with light and dark, good and evil the entire show, and he doesn't want to admit that he has any sort of positive feelings toward Hannibal but he's obviously lying to himself. In s1 he at least sees Hannibal as a close confident, and his feelings are QUITE strong by the end of s2 or else he wouldn't be so conflicted about what he 'has' to do. By s3 when he's practically pining for Hannibal, and when he first meets with him again in the art gallery, I think it's definitely Will in love. Look at the way Will watches Hannibal during that scene; there's so much affection in his gaze. It's almost this soft, kind of starry expression; it's ridiculous. http://i.imgur.com/7F2UABE.png (He's this happy to see Hannibal after all Hannibal has done to him. To have heart eyes after all that...idk, it doesn't feel in the least bit platonic to me.)
He hates that he feels that way, and he tries to deny it for a long time, but even as early as s2 he's having that dream about 'your beloved's potential', and I feel like that's an interesting choice of words. Why does he ask "Is Hannibal in love with me?" in s3 if he already suspects as much in s2? I wonder if it's both that Will is seeing himself from Hannibal's perspective and going, "He loves me, this is his way of showing me he cares" and maybe a bit of him realizing that he also loves Hannibal, and resisting the thought that him doing so could be okay.
IDK, these two are complicated.
To sum it up though, I don't even think the sex matters much; I feel like both of them could have a romantic relationship without it. I do think that sexuality can be fluid though (not always, but for some people and in some situations) and this is one of those cases where I feel like Will 'being in love' with Hannibal could make him okay with a sexual aspect to their relationship; it could push him to crave intimacy with a man even if maybe he's never considered it before. I'm not sure that Hannibal has spent a lot of time thinking about Will in a sexual nature, but there IS something about the way he looks at Will... I'd be surprised if he hadn't considered it at all. (I don't think Hannibal 'needs' sex, though. I feel like sex is probably a perk, but maybe one he doesn't engage in often because he needs someone who he feels is 'worthy' of him and there simply aren't many he feels are. Bedelia is probably the closest anyone has ever come to understanding him besides Will, so he feels connected to her on some level.)
On one podcast that I was listening to (AfterBuzz TV reviews), they all thought Will was in love with Hannibal.
Great, I'm already listening to Hannibal podcasts and now I have another to add to the list! Haha. (No, really, I love them, it's great.) Honestly, on the two I've listened to everyone seemed to agree that there was a lot of love between Hannibal and Will and that the whole ending was very romantic in nature. Lots of good natured jokes about staring lovingly into each others eyes and nuzzling, and one podcast in particular was very convinced of Will and Hannibal's love for each other and took it quite seriously. I'm not even sure how you could watch s3 and come to any other conclusion... Hannibal repeatedly uses the word love in conversations concerning Will. Even if he's not flat out saying, "I love you Will Graham", he might as well be. And that's not even taking into account his actions. (We could be here all day so I won't get into those.)
But I think that even if Hannibal had will as a life partner/murder partner (with occasional bloody hugs), he'd be perfectly satisfied and not need any more from their relationship.
I basically agree with this, though I can easily see their relationship eventually morphing into one that includes some kind of sexual intimacy. I don't so much imagine it as the two of them humping like rabbits over every dead body (lmao, this is what I feel fandom wants, which...fair enough), but that desire could exist and be reciprocated. The whole 'low sex drive' thing feels pretty IC.
A dead Will is no use to Hannibal; he just wants to use the encephalitis to speed up Will's mental break.
Hannibal the helpful cannibal. How thoughtful of you, Hannibal.
(I typed too much, good lord.)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Hannibal killing Abigail...I think it was part to spite Will after he'd been rejected (Like, "Well, you say you've changed me, look at how much I've changed")
Yeah, it was definitely a punishment for Will.
(He's this happy to see Hannibal after all Hannibal has done to him. To have heart eyes after all that...idk, it doesn't feel in the least bit platonic to me.)
I still can't believe Will is so HAPPY in that scene, lol. But I'll have to pay attention to Will's feelings for Hannibal in my S2 rewatch. I think there's something there, but I think he's repressing it so much that he'd deny it's anything other than deep friendship. Not because Hannibal is a man, necessarily, but because Hannibal is evil and wanting anything to do with him is bad. Bad enough that Will can't stay away when they're 'friends,' but what would it say of Will if Will was actually in love with such a person? I think that's the main thing he's struggling with. And I think it might not be something he even realizes until after the S2 finale, when he has so much time to think and process and think of what might have been. But thinking of dark Will, how about that scene where he imagines the two of them killing Jack? I mean, that's not even wishing he'd run away with Hannibal, that's daydreaming about the murder of his boss/friend.
Hannibal repeatedly uses the word love in conversations concerning Will. Even if he's not flat out saying, "I love you Will Graham", he might as well be.
Yep. Add that to the list of reasons why this show is the opposite of queerbaiting. Nothing jokey or to interpretation, just a guy 100% secure in himself discussing love like it's no big deal.
Great, I'm already listening to Hannibal podcasts and now I have another to add to the list!
I assume you've found A Matter of Taste?
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Absolutely, yea. Hannibal is not that interested with 'normal' people, it takes something special to draw his gaze. Will is unique in so many ways (What you said about Will being able to see clearer than others, and the fact that he can get inside the killers head and understand what they're going through...Hannibal has never known anyone like him; he's a unicorn) and that's what makes Hannibal look at him and go, "Huh, this guy is different."
he doesn't seem to have that much affection for other killers just because they're killers
Right, that's true. He might have a shallow curiosity, but those people are nothing beyond a momentary distraction. He doesn't care about them in any deep or meaningful way; he just acknowledges they share something vaguely in common.
I still can't believe Will is so HAPPY in that scene, lol.
The language in that scene is so flowery, too. You can't help but read into it, because this isn't some simple, "Hello, I'm going to attempt to kill you now." Will is relieved to see Hannibal, he's been wanting to see Hannibal, he wants to understand Hannibal and he practically drinks in the sight of him. Whatever Will might say (Like his "Good? No" when Hannibal asks, "Was it good to see me?"
Though honestly, I mean, good isn't really the appropriate word because again, Hannibal is FAR from good for Will, but that doesn't mean Will doesn't enjoy it regardless), he truly does have a lot of complex feelings regarding Hannibal, and not all of them are negative ones. He knows they should be so he's ashamed of them ("What kind of person falls in love with the devil?" etc), but you can't control how you feel. (Or who you fall in love with, as Hannibal says.)But thinking of dark Will, how about that scene where he imagines the two of them killing Jack? I mean, that's not even wishing he'd run away with Hannibal, that's daydreaming about the murder of his boss/friend.
I feel like some people might write that off as Will fantasizing about killing Jack because that's what Hannibal wants, and he can't seem to help seeing what Hannibal wants and does even back when such thoughts disgusted him. However, I believe by the end of s2 Will has changed a good deal; he's becoming more like Hannibal, with him repeating Hannibal's "I wanted to see what would happen". Part of Will is curious as to what killing Jack with Hannibal would be like. It doesn't mean he wants to do it, but something about the thought intrigues him, I think. (Which is another reason he wants it all to end at the end of s2, and I imagine at the end of s3 as well; he's tired of feeling torn in two.)
I assume you've found A Matter of Taste?
I did, yes, and I adore it! A Matter of Taste and Eat The Rudecast are my favorites. I especially like how Eat the Rudecast breaks down the episodes and though they have some fun with it, they still take the show very seriously and aren't afraid to talk about all the small details and hidden meanings. A Matter of Taste is great too though, and I never get tired of their jokes on Hannibal/Will. (Again, though those jokes are good natured and they still take the relationship itself seriously.) I'm pretty new to podcasts (I love Welcome to Night Vale, but don't have much experience with them other than that), and though I like the idea of discussing a show in-depth like this, most shows just don't have this much to dissect. Hannibal....you could spend a few months watching the episodes and picking them apart.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Will is relieved to see Hannibal, he's been wanting to see Hannibal, he wants to understand Hannibal and he practically drinks in the sight of him.
The scene really does read like long-parted lovers. It's all very understated, but it's like this epic reunion.
Though I still have to wonder at what Will's plan was afterward. Stab Hannibal on street? Where there are like witnesses? Then what?
Part of Will is curious as to what killing Jack with Hannibal would be like. It doesn't mean he wants to do it, but something about the thought intrigues him, I think.
And I think Will is just analyzing what went down in 2x13 to death. He's regretted the decision he made as well as regretting the ones he had available to him. He already knows how badly what happened turned out, so I think he's flirting with the idea of would it really have been so bad for things to have gone another way.
I'm pretty new to podcasts (I love Welcome to Night Vale, but don't have much experience with them other than that
Ha, me too! I just have a hard time getting into things for listening to. I tried WtNV and liked it, and I ended up finding TV show podcasts simply because I was desperate to hear other people's post episode thoughts.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Murder IS a binding force.
It's all very understated, but it's like this epic reunion.
There are few reunions that have satisfied me in the same way. It was better than I could've hoped for. (And infinitely more touching than I could've hoped, given...well, everything.)
Where there are like witnesses? Then what?
God knows with Will, really. Maybe he assumed that Jack would eventually find them, but...Hannibal definitely would have plenty of time to kill him by that point. (Maybe, again, he didn't care?)
He already knows how badly what happened turned out, so I think he's flirting with the idea of would it really have been so bad for things to have gone another way.
Well, he does have that conversation with himself about infinite universes, and "If everything that can happen happens, then you can never really do the wrong thing." He seems to be longing for the idea that things could've been different, even as he knows that some of the things he wants are wrong. "The wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought." It's interesting rewatching that scene because Abigail (which of course is truly Will's own thoughts) says, "He was supposed to take me with him." Then Will asks 'Abigail' "After everything he's done, you'd still go to him?" He does, too! So yea, I think Will went through a whole lot of regret and his feelings for Hannibal are more conflicted than ever. He's battling with what he knows he should feel and how he actually feels.
WTNV was a first for me! I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it too. Are there any other podcasts you listen to, other than Hannibal ones? (We might not share the same fandoms, idk, but I'm open to suggestions if we do!)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Or ramen.
He seems to be longing for the idea that things could've been different, even as he knows that some of the things he wants are wrong. "The wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought."
That episode is totally going to change on rewatch, given that we know that anything he says to Abigail is just part of his own mind hashing things out. It's like Abigail is the pro-Hannibal part of his mind, and he's arguing with it, but then even HE starts coming around.
Are there any other podcasts you listen to, other than Hannibal ones? (We might not share the same fandoms, idk, but I'm open to suggestions if we do!)
I started listening to Made of Fail and Anglo-Filles, which are general fandom podcasts, but that's it. At least Anglo-Filles had one episode discussing Hannibal at some point.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
That episode is totally going to change on rewatch
Oh yes, it adds so many layers to the whole Hannibal/Will relationship, and Will's own feelings on their relationship. (Which are surprisingly...I don't want to say positive, but forgiving and full of longing considering all that Hannibal has put him through.)
"He was my friend." Like...WHY?! He played you like a fiddle Will, he hurt you in unspeakable ways, and yet Will still sees him as someone who cares about. It's almost impossible to comprehend the bond those two have, or why Will would still hold any fondness for Hannibal after the events that transpired. (But again, Will is a unicorn; he doesn't always make sense, neither do most people's emotions. Plus...empathy. Maybe he appreciates that Hannibal took such an interest in him, even as he wishes that interest had been less...er, violent, manipulative and abusive, lol.)
It's like Abigail is the pro-Hannibal part of his mind, and he's arguing with it, but then even HE starts coming around.
I think by that point it's possible that the 'pro-Hannibal' part of his mind was expanding. He seems more for him than against him, but the rest of him is still causing conflict.
Thanks! I will look into them.