[ SECRET POST #3183 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3183 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 047 secrets from Secret Submission Post #455.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Attitudes like this make me wonder what slash fans do when they read/write fic. Do they NOT insert themselves into the mindset of one of the shipped pair? Do they not get immersed when they read? Why do het ships get flack for this? I wouldn't begrudge a slash fan for doing the same thing when they read slash fic.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'm a huge slash fan and I like to read slash for the dynamic -- how the characters interact with each other. I empathize with them, sure, but I don't insert myself because I'm not the character and doing so, I feel, kind of destroys what makes them unique and interesting.

I can get immersed in their mindset but "insertion" to me implies hollowing the character out and filling them up with my attributes and mindset rather than trying to understand the character.

At which point, I might as well read original fiction because it's destroying the characters.

I'm pretty selective about the slash fic I'll read as a result because I do think a lot of slash writers have a tendency to hollow out characters and make them OOC (like other writers, though, to be fair).

[(Anonymous)]

Well, het shipped characters have their own dynamics and characteristics too. And removing either of those components would make it an original story more than a fic, or just a badly written fic, as you say.

I guess what I mean to say, is when I read, my mind tags along with whichever character the story's POV is in, but that character is definitely the one doing the driving, so to speak. I can't insert myself into a well-written character the way you describe, hollowing them out to make space for myself. Maybe "empathize" is a better word for it.

So yeah. Maybe this isn't a het vs slash issue and more of a writing issue. I think het and slash fic readers should feel free to empathize with the characters they are reading about, without getting accusations of being a bad fan for it.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'm a huge slash fan and I like to read slash for the dynamic -- how the characters interact with each other. I empathize with them, sure, but I don't insert myself because I'm not the character and doing so, I feel, kind of destroys what makes them unique and interesting.

I can get immersed in their mindset but "insertion" to me implies hollowing the character out and filling them up with my attributes and mindset rather than trying to understand the character.

Same here. About the only way I really "insert" myself into a slash story I write or read is if I have a crush on character A in the pairing, and I'm writing or reading from the perspective of character B, who has the crush, thinking about all the things they find attractive about A (that I'd also find attractive).

Outside of that, yeah, I wouldn't identify with a male character quite the same way I would a female one.

[(Anonymous)]

This exactly. I have no desire to insert myself into characters; I read about them because I like the characters and the dynamic they have with each other. I have no desire to involve myself in that dynamic in any way - as far as I'm concerned, I'm just a spectator, and that's all I want to be.

[(Anonymous)]

Yep, THIS. I read fic for the dynamics of the specific characters. This is why IC writing is so important to many people.

If I wanted self-insertion I'd just pick up a romance novel or something. Or read erotic. Or go find another human and interact with them.

[(Anonymous)]

This is exactly how I feel about self-insert fics. Well said, anon.

[(Anonymous)]

I totally agree, anon.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with writing a Mary Sue/Self-Insert character, and I have never actually criticized any single individual person for doing so. However, frankly, I find self-insert fics annoying as fuck. In fact, I think they might be my single greatest fanfic pet peeve.

Probably because self-insert is anathema to what fanfic and shipping are about for me. For me, fanfic and shipping are about the characters - their lives and their personalities and their feelings for each other - and my vicarious experience of that. I have no part in their world and their lives whatsoever. Their universe is theirs and it doesn't contain me or the universe I inhabit. When I try to imaging myself so much as bumping into one of the characters in a shop and saying "Oh, sorry," and moving past them, it feels extremely weird and wrong, intrusive and also just impossible.

When someone else self-inserts, I find it nearly as uncomfortable and intrusive feeling as if I were to do it myself. It feels like they're intruding on this world that doesn't contain them, and on these characters lives, which have no place for them. And then they're forcing the story to accommodated them to their satisfaction. When a person turns one of the characters into a self-insert, that bugs me somewhat less, because I find it less overtly disruptive of the integrity of the character's textual universe. And I also tend to be pretty flexible about what fanon interpretations of the characters I'm willing to roll with. But I agree with the anon above that, when the self-insertion becomes obvious enough - it can feel like the character (whom I love) is being hollowed out and then filled up with the fic writer's own alter ego.

What I'm describing is how it feels to me, not some kind of objective truth about self-insert fics. As I said before, there isn't actually anything wrong with writing them. But there isn't anything wrong (or inherently unfeminist) with disliking them either.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, this. All of this.

[(Anonymous)]

Generally speaking, fandom only looks down upon changing sex/orientation when you're making an established GLBTQ character or relationship into a cis het one. Anything else is not only allowed, but encouraged.

[(Anonymous)]

Once I saw someone get offended for turning a fanon gay ship (they don't talk to each other in canon...not even glance each other's way) and genderbending one of them in fanart.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't insert myself into either of the characters...

[(Anonymous)]

Some people just genuinely enjoy the interactions between two characters without the need to shove themselves into it :/
That's part of the reason why people can multiship the same characters with several different people.

Hetero shippers can simply enjoy the relationship between two characters, but they probably get more flak because a lot of younger fangirls create OC's or self-insert and make it pretty obvious in their works. I've seen fanboys do this too though I haven't seen as much male fic writers in my fandoms.

I think a lot of slash shippers just ship their two favorite guys together or guys they find attractive and just like to see them together. Or maybe their into voyeurism.

[diet_poison]

I'm a straight woman, and I don't self-insert even when I read het.

There's nothing wrong with self-insertion as a way to enjoy stories or relationships or shipping but it's not the only way to do it.