[ SECRET POST #3183 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3183 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 047 secrets from Secret Submission Post #455.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

01. http://i.imgur.com/92DS4DY.png

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, probably

who gives a shit

[(Anonymous)]

I'm curious how the other 15% is interpreted differently?

[(Anonymous)]

So?

I've come to the point that most of the blowback against Mary Sues is pretty sad. Yeah, people's OCs can be underwritten or badly handled in countless different ways, leading to a bad fic.

A: Sturgeon's Law reminds us that this is not exclusive to self-inserts, and that tons of everything is complete crap.

B: It makes the writers, many of whom are young or are trying to learn new ways of expressing their ideas, or find something to be proud of in themselves, happy.

Mostly it just starts to sound like 'hey, screw dumb girls for writing stories about their fantasies.' You know?

So I get where you're coming from, but mostly it doesn't matter imo.

[(Anonymous)]

Mary Sues are to fandom as pumpkin spice is to the Internet in general, imo

[a_potato]

Yeah, I kind of feel the same. It used to bother me a lot more when I was younger and had this idea in my head of What Fic Should Be, but now I'm pretty much like...write what you want to write. This stuff is supposed to be for fun, after all.

[(Anonymous)]

Mostly it just starts to sound like 'hey, screw dumb girls for writing stories about their fantasies.' You know?

This is how this sort of criticism has been reading to me a lot lately, too. Which is irritating.

And adding to your reasons why young writers might write those kinds of stories, I'd say it's a good way to learn how to craft characters-it'd make sense that you start out with one that's similar to (or exactly like) yourself, and tweak it here and there for the story. Good practice for when you get older, and continue to learn how to craft characters that might well be inspired by you or people you know, but which can still stand as individual characters in their own right.

Yeah. If people don't want to read Mary-Sue stories, then they can just hit the back button. Problem solved.

[dani_phantasma]

The way people react rather cruelly and violently to anything Mary Sue because of this often bothers me.

Those that claim that they're helping people to write better can save it. Taking an accusatory attitude and mocking them will do nothing to help them write better, and will probably only make things worse. It's like people who think they are "helping" fat people get healthier by mocking their weight.

The "this is bad and you should feel bad" approach doesn't help, and more often than not I read it as an attempt to spin dickery in some kind of 'helpful' way.

Also when people flame and then pull the "they shouldn't have put it on the internet" argument comes off disturbingly like people trying to "teach" younger people not to share things, or they'll be ripped into. "Welcome to the internet" is little more than "I'll do it because I can!".

Not saying every one has to be nice on the internet, but I wish people wouldn't try to spin it as "i'm really helping them" or absolving themselves of responsibility because 'hurr durr it's the internet'.If one must be a dick, at least accept/take responsibility for it.

[(Anonymous)]

Mostly it just starts to sound like 'hey, screw dumb girls for writing stories about their fantasies.' You know?

^^^^ THIS.

Also, I'm at the stage where a lot of the hate-ons for OCs and Mary Sues and sporking and all of that... it just sounds so juvenile to me. Mainly because that's the sort of thing I used to do when I was a teenager, and I thought I was oh-so-clever and a better writer than everyone else for it.

If people wanna have their fun, why hate on them? It's fanfic, for god's sake. Most of the people writing this stuff are just teenagers; they're not doing anything wrong.

[a_potato]

Maybe? I think that's more likely the case with AUs and OCs than with genderbent male characters, but I don't think it's strange to think that, especially since self-inserts are so common in fic.

[(Anonymous)]

See, this is kind of awkward for me because, I'm generally a huge slash shipper but sometimes I turn one of the dudes into a lady because while I love the dynamic, sometimes I just want to read about a girl.

It's like with Charles Xavier and Erik Lehnherr. Sure, Moira's a nice character - strong, skilled, important to the plot - but in terms of the story, she doesn't mean nearly as much to Charles as Erik does. So I would much, much rather just read a story with Charles and girl!Erik.

It's not because it's a self-insert. It's because I find the mens' dynamic to be by far more compelling and interesting and well written. So if I want het, then gender swap it is!

It's one of the things that kind of annoys me about slash shippers being called misogynists, to be honest. Because I have no issue with female characters. It's just that male characters and their relationships are just so often better so I'd much rather just gender swap them.

See:

Charles and Erik vs Charles and Moira
Kirk and Spock vs. Spock and Uhura
Steve and Bucky vs. Steve and Sharon

The guys' relationship to each other form the emotional heart of the story. And so, while the female characters aren't bad, they aren't nearly as interesting to me as a result. I'd much rather just make one of the dudes a lady. I don't really see how that's misogynistic or self-inserty because the reason I like to do this in the first place is because I think the dudes have the most interesting dynamic.

[(Anonymous)]

really late to the party here...

I find the mens' dynamic to be by far more compelling and interesting and well written...It's just that male characters and their relationships are just so often better so I'd much rather just gender swap them... I like to do this in the first place is because I think the dudes have the most interesting dynamic.

Okay, in a way, this is the fault of the canon. The writers of the canon chose not to make those dynamics between the guy and the girl as emotionally interesting because really, the girls were written primarily as love interests instead of people. And honestly focusing on more than one relationship in what is essentially a two to two and half hour movie is next to impossible. So, because "research" shows that women identify with men just as well as they do with women, the men tend to get the primary story lines.

On the other hand, what you're saying is offensive because you're saying instead of taking the time and writing about the female characters you have nothing against and telling good emotionally dynamic stories with them with their male counterparts, you instead take the lazy way out and just change the gender of the male best friend to a girl for sexy fun times. So, the canon females who are supposedly interesting and plot important are cut out for your sexy fun times, no matter what gender Erik or Charles is (since you're cutting them out for slash too.)

this is sort of like saying "I'm not homophobic, I have gay friends!"

It's fandom, so write what you want to write. Just, be aware you're falling into the same trap as the writers of the original canon. Even if Erik becomes "Erika" or Charles becomes "Charlotte."

[(Anonymous)]

Often true, but not pressed about it. Just tag your OCs so I can filter them out and we're golden, young fangirls! If I had internet when I was your age I would have written so much fic of me accidentally saving the day with KITT and Michael Knight.

And I will say that genderswaps are as far as I can tell less likely to be self-inserts than total OCs are. Maybe someone likes both Dude A and Dude B as characters but only is turned on by sex involving a dick and a vagina. Or maybe they want them to have a dozen babies without the intervention of weird magic and science and...cloacas.

[(Anonymous)]

Attitudes like this make me wonder what slash fans do when they read/write fic. Do they NOT insert themselves into the mindset of one of the shipped pair? Do they not get immersed when they read? Why do het ships get flack for this? I wouldn't begrudge a slash fan for doing the same thing when they read slash fic.

[(Anonymous)]

really? I just figure they're homophobic.

[(Anonymous)]

It's true in a lot of cases.
I remember reading several fanfics for one ship I used to ship and a lot of them were in 1st person or often slipped up into 1st person.

Also you can tell when the artist keep one character the same and change the self-insert characters appearance and personality to fit their own.

[sachiko_san]

I know this explains something like Zutara.

[(Anonymous)]

I can tell the people who self-insert when they ship one female character with everyone or one specific character even when there is no canon basis for it.

It shouldn't bother me as much as it does but I can't help but feel grossed out that they are vicariously living their fantasies like the same kind of people who unironically enjoy 50 shades of grey.

Sorry if I just offended the person reading this. Don't worry I can't do anything to stop your fantasies so don't get mad at me 'kay :)

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, it really bothers me when slash shippers change the sex of one character just to make it hetero, but I've seen some great trans fanart/headcanons and I think those are great.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

Some genderswap fics that turn a slash ship het may genuinely be because the writer wants to explore how having female changes things. That would however presume that the canon setting has some significant differences in the societal roles of males and females.

For example: Hobbit fic that has Bilbo as female. Tolikien-verse has some pretty strong, old-fashioned gender roles. Some of the fics I have seen of a female Bilbo is all about how the events of The Hobbit would be affected, with possible issues of gender roles in Hobbit society and also in Dwarven society as well, plus the resulting culture clash between the two.

However if the fic is not trying to play with gender roles, I am quicker to suspect a bit of homophobia going on than [intentional] self-insert. Like a lot of others here have said, reading fanfic is not always about inserting oneself into the scene. I read as an observer, I'm not in fic to imagine myself in one of the roles, because while I may be given insight into a character's thoughts, I am not that character.

[beverlykatz]

I don't know, my go-to assumption for why someone ships only the half-genderbent version of m/m pairings is homophobia. It's a lot more likely than self inserts, unfortunately.

[(Anonymous)]

What's unfair about it? It's probably true, and at least 85% of the time. And what is even wrong with that? I have no problem with self-insert as a way for new writers to get to grips with writing. People who should no better? Well, hell, we're all allowed to indulge sometimes.
Don't feel bad about how you feel. Admit privately what you suspect is the case and either enjoy it, share the love, or keep quiet.

[(Anonymous)]

Also a lot of times when they ship them with the main female character.

I don't say anything, but yes the writers are mainly self-inserting when they do this, and it's obvious to everyone but themselves. Embarrassingly so. It's polite to say nothing and just move on.

[(Anonymous)]

Nah, it's not unfair just because it's likely to be the truth.

[got_swagger]

I'm a huge Kirk/McCoy shipper, and I'm always down for a girl!Jim fic when it pops up. Only I want it to be a parallel realities thing where Jim and girl!Jim see each other and comment on how hot they are before their respective Bones' drag them away.

I love the ship, whether it's AU or gender flip or four years into the five year mission or sex pollen because sex pollen.