fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3215 ]

[ SECRET POST #3215 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3215 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

[Disney's Descendants]

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04. [SPOILERS for Undertale]

__________________________________________________

05. [SPOILERS for Ancillary Mercy]

__________________________________________________

06. [SPOILERS for Great British Bake Off, series 6]

__________________________________________________

07. [SPOILERS for Defiance]

__________________________________________________

08. [SPOILERS for shepherd's crown]

__________________________________________________

09. [WARNING for abuse]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #459.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Random question. If someone is accused of a crime and they insist they didn't do it, is it a betrayal for their friends to believe they did?

I'm actually asking because I'm reading a fic where it was treated horribly that the friends of a character believed that he had committed the murder he was accused of. And when it was discovered he was innocent, the fact that he could forgive them was treated as amazing and they grovelled and all had to make it up to him.

Whereas to me, if evidence points to someone committing the crime, even if they are a friend, I don't think it is wrong to believe they did it and I don't think the friends would have anything to make up for.

Well, I think in terms of their judgment, in terms of what they believe to be true, it's a question of judgment. It's not a betrayal of their friend if they really believe the friend did the crime.

But you would hope that the friends would believe the friend had at least some good reason for the murder & stand by the friend. You have to hang tight. That's my opinion.

It was after the person had been convicted that they were then found innocent. This was one of those Potter fics where everyone betrays Harry, only in this case he was sent to Azkaban because everyone though he had used the killing curse. The evidence pointed to him, he was convicted. Later it was discovered that polyjuice and some sort of coercion potion had been used, but no one knew that at the time.

I think that's a case where Harry would be kind of right in being upset. Like, it's a situation where you should have enough faith in the guy.

Or at least not to abandon him entirely. Stand by him at least a little.

Without knowing which specific fic you're referring to, I actually think that in HP fic it often is betrayal on the part of his friends. Most of those fics that I've read are set some time after PoA came out and Sirius (when alive) and Remus are among those who turn their backs on Harry.

Given that Sirius was framed himself and Remus had already turned his back on a friend who was framed. Ron and Hermione should a) know Harry better than that and b) they were there when Harry was falsily accused of a shitton of things, from being the Heir to cheating in the Triwizard Tournament to all of fifth year. Even if their is evidence, they know that powerful people want to get rid of Harry and that lying isn't above them. (Also I think it's terribly OOC for Ron, Hermione and Sirius to turn their back on Harry, but that's a different discussion.)

Also, Veritaserum is a thing in the HP verse. They can find out for sure if he's innocent or not by giving him Veritaserum at his trial. But in most of those fics his trial, if he gets one, is a sham and no one makes a fuss about it.

I would say it depends on the situation and what evidence there is. If everything points towards a friend I think I would be a bit wary at least, and ultimately would feel it to be a betrayal if I was certain they had done it. I can still understand that someone might feel betrayed by their friends though, as it would be a situation where one would need a lot of support, especially if there was a serious crime like a murder.

It also depends on the friend really. If it was my best friend I might have had some doubts (depending on the evidence), but I think I ultimately would have stood on her side if she says she's innocent. If it was a more casual friend I would turn away a lot easier if I thought they had done something horrible.

*wouldn't feel it to be a betrayal (to turn away from them) if I was certain they had done it.

Kind of depends what the crime is?

Murder is pretty extreme. It implies they planned to kill someone and then they went out and did it. I would have a hard time believing someone I cared about would get their murder on.

I could believe a situation getting out of hand where alcohol or drugs were involved that resulted in a death, though.

I would need to see the evidence and talk to the person, I think.

If the situation were reversed and I was telling the truth but none of my friends believed me, I wouldn't be asking for apologies. I would be finding some new friends. Or moving to the middle of nowhere and getting lots of dogs because people suck.

I can see both sides of the coin here - It would make sense to believe the friend did it if the evidence points to it, but it would also hurt to have your friends believe that about you when you didn't do it. I think its one of those situations where even though the friends are not in the wrong, the not-murderer still would have the right to feel hurt.

Firstly, there's believing the friend capable of murder (murder is different than killing in self-defense or defense of others and is different from manslaughter). Secondly, there's the not believing the friend when they insist they didn't do it, unless they've somehow proven themselves untrustworthy in the past.

If the evidence points to them doing it, why is it wrong to believe that over their claims of innocence without evidence? If it could go either way, yes, believe the friend. But if the evidence points to guilt it isn't wrong to believe that I don't think.

ayrt

It comes down to faith and trust, neither of which are quantifiable. If you trust someone, you should believe them. If you have faith in someone, you believe them. Now, faith and trust can be misplaced and it's up to you to decide if they are. And drawing conclusions from available evidence seems understandable. But that's not how feelings work. And if I told someone who is supposed to trust me that I didn't do a horrible thing and they didn't believe me because of evidence to the contrary, especially in a world where things often aren't what they seem, I would absolutely feel betrayed.

But faith and trust are supposed to be based, to a certain extent, on reason. I don't think blind faith is healthy or should be expected from people. If the evidence points one way, it isn't a betrayal to believe it. And I think it is actually worse, in a situation with overwhelming evidence, to continue to have faith that someone didn't do something horrible.

ayrt

I'm not sure we're working off the same definitions. Faith, as in belief that is not based on proof and betray, as in to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling. And while trust can be based, in part, on reason, it is inextricably bound up in feelings, at least for me.

Complicated question. First, if the evidence strongly points to someone being guilty, then I don't think it's a betrayal for a friend to believe it. Just because you're friends with someone doesn't mean you have to believe they're incapable of ever doing anything bad, that's just not realistic. I love my friends, but none of them are saints.

But on the other hand, I can see where it might feel like a huge betrayal to the person who is thought guilty, especially if they have a difficult time proving their innocence, etc. On the OTHER other hand, if your friends have some pretty convincing evidence that suggests you're guilty, I don't think it's reasonable to act like they're backstabbers for not believing you, and I don't think massive amount of grovelling is warranted. It doesn't sound like a realistic scenario for a fic, either.

I think if it was someone I was really close to, I wouldn't *want* to believe they were guilty to start with. But, I'd also be aware of that, and I pride myself on being rational and going with proof. So I'd probably take the coward's way out by not making up my mind.

I'm now also wondering if I'd stand by someone who definitely was guilty. How close would we have to be? What kind of mitigating circumstances?...

I wonder which fic it is? I saw your comment about it being a HP betrayal fic, I've read quite a few of them, especially if they're Harmonian or Harry/Luna.

Thing is, if there was evidence, falsified as it may be, I don't think it was an objective betrayal, because they didn't know better. However if Harry views it as betrayal, he is reacting on an emotional level, because he is the one being subjected to a punishment he doesn't deserve. Emotion is not logical - even if Harry was in a mindset to think logically and work out that people don't know he didn't do it, his emotions would still be upset and he would still be sad, angry and betrayed.

So basically... I agree with you, but Harry is reacting from emotion.

Until you clarified the context, I was thinking of rape. I've read about a lot of cases where a community rallied around a nice young boy who couldn't possibly be a rapist. If someone I knew was accused of rape, I don't think I'd be able to convince myself of his or her innocence just based on liking him or her. I have no idea what I'd do or how I'd handle it if someone who insisted on their innocence came to me for moral support and reassurance.

That... Depends on the person. There is not a single piece of evidence short of a confession that would convince me my sibs did something terrible. Anyone else, though? Even with cousins or close friends a lot would be too circumstantial for sweeping generalizations.

In the case of Harry, though? As a Hermione or Ron, I'd believe him. I'd fight for hearing, search out lawyers, and generally believe in him, even if I actually didn't.

There was a show on TV about ten years ago that I caught part of an episode after soccer of. I don't remember much besides the premise, but it had a powerful impact on me. The lawyer was fighting for her client, going through hoops and filing every sort of appeal because he kept insisting he was innocent of the B&Es and rapes he'd been convicted of. Eventual retesting of DNA led them to a different man in one case, who was serving time for something else. He's in for life regardless, but the lawyer manages to promise him something that makes him confess to both rapes, but with a catch. He can't just say he did it, he has to *convince* them. He does, mentioning the fact that he'd cut the first woman on the chest. This hadn't come up in court because she had been to traumatized to mention it, but was revealed as part of the plot earlier in the episode with the woman pulling open her shirt and asserting that she'd never forget or mistake the man who did it to her when talking about the convicted man's newest appeal.

Anyway, the convicted guy is acquitted. The scene that stuck with me, hough, was when he thanks his lawyer.

Guy: "I could never have done it without you. So many times I just wanted to give up, but you kept me going. You always had a plan and never gave up on me. You believed in me even when I doubted myself."

Lawyer: "That's the thing, though. I didn't believe you." (Cries as she leaves the room)

I'd like to think I'd be like that, never giving up even if I didn't believe. I don't know, obviously, but... I like to think that.

Back to your point, though, it would be reasonable for any non-trio character, but I'd ink his two best friends should know better. I don't think grovelling would work to fix it, though. Not on something that big.

Any other characters, though? Yeah, probably. It would make sense for them to trust the evidence over Harry.

IRL: If a friend was charged, tried, and convicted of murder; and I had no reason to suspect a miscarriage of justice apart from my own faith in my friend; I would probably conclude that they'd done it, not tell my friend as much, and visit them in prison.

In the Harry Potter universe: The government and the legal system are so badly constructed, badly run, and blatantly corrupt that I wouldn't trust them to convict a dog of public urination. Them convicting a friend of murder and locking them away in Azkaban 'Blatant Human Rights Violations' Prison? I would burn the Ministry to the ground with my own two hands before I let that happen.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3215 ]

Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Well, yes.

Re: Well, yes.

Re: Well, yes.

Re: Well, yes.

Re: Well, yes.

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question

Re: Question