[ SECRET POST #3254 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3254 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 029 secrets from Secret Submission Post #465.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

What about that isn't understandable, though? Many people who were bullied or abused grow up to be bullies and abusers themselves.

Neville is (due to a horror show childhood) a total fuck-up at nearly everything and Hermione is a muggle-born know-it-all. Both of them are very different from Snape, but likely also would remind Snape uncomfortably of himself at that age for various reasons. They're both exactly the sort of people that someone like Snape would be horrible to.

He's shitty to Harry because Harry reminds him of James and Lily. He's horrible to Hermione and Neville because they're easy targets and remind him of his own problems.

[(Anonymous)]

It's understandable in the sense that it's realistic human behavior. I agree with that. I am saying that I don't think it's remotely justifiable or excusable.

[(Anonymous)]

Outside of Snapewifes or something, I've never really seen much justifying of his behavior. ime pretty much everyone agrees he ranged between being a petty asshole to being outright cruel. That's part of why people like him as a character so much. He's an incredibly stunted, abusive fuckwad who does immature and abusive things to everyone around him.

He was also incredibly brave and selfless and without him Voldemort would almost assuredly have won. You can be a hero without being a good person. You can be celebrated and mourned by the people you hurt.

YOU might not find Snape's individual actions justifiable or excusable, that doesn't mean the characters in that 'verse wouldn't forgive him and move on or that other readers shouldn't feel sympathy for him.

[(Anonymous)]

someone is literally justifying and excusing his behavior, right now. it's leisuretime, in the thread right above this one.

I agree that his sacrifice to defeat Voldemort was important and I don't object to anyone in-universe honoring him. But that doesn't overwrite his horrible behavior. That's all I'm saying.

[leisuretime]

It's excusing his behavior to say he's a horrible teacher and to acknowledge that he was cruel to Hermione? Okay, then. I'm just saying he had reason to be that way, regardless of whether it was right.

[(Anonymous)]

Saying that he had a good reason to be horrible to the kids he was teaching is the definition of justifying his behavior. Like, the literal dictionary definition of it. Saying that he had to do those things for the greater good is excusing it.

I really am sorry, but I don't see how on Earth you can say those things and not see how you're excusing his behavior.

[(Anonymous)]

Dude, they didn't say it was a GOOD reason. They said it was a reason.

Nowhere in this thread have they said he did the right thing. It should be pretty obvious if you read the books WHY Snape did the things he did. Saying "Snape was a bully because he's an asshole and otherwise it would have been suspicious" isn't excusing him of being an asshole.

[(Anonymous)]

Treating bullying Neville as a minor character flaw seems like excusing it. Treating bullying Hermione as necessary seems like justifying it.

If you disagree, fair enough, but... I mean, those genuinely seem like dictionary examples of those things. I'm honestly not sure, if those don't count, what does count.

[leisuretime]

Again, I say, understanding why he behaves that way is not the same as saying "Yep! All these actions are A-OK!" And it's possible to acknowledge -- as anon above me has done -- that someone can do bad things but still be brave and work for the greater good.

But I'm really getting tired of repeating that concept to you, so I'm out. (Thought I'd be out after the last comment, but then this one appeared.)

[(Anonymous)]

The problem that I'm having is that your arguments don't seem to line up. You say it's just a question of understanding Snape's actions, not approving them. And you say that you're just saying that he had reasons, not that they were good reasons.

And I agree with that. Snape definitely had reasons for his actions. And I think that he was a morally complex character, who sacrificed his life to defeat Voldemort, and I think those were good things. I also think that he did some morally bad things. So, up to that point, we agree.

The problem is that, when we were talking about specific things that Snape did, you didn't just talk about understanding his character. You justified and excused his actions. When it came to Hermione, you dismissed it as a minor lapse of character ('if he weren't a teacher, would we say those qualities make him a horrible human being'). When it came to Neville, you said that it was necessary to make sure Voldemort believed that Snape was part of his inner circle. Now, to me, that's the textbook definition of excusing and justifying. Justifying someone's actions means saying that they were done for a good reason. You said that being cruel and abusive towards Hermione was necessary for the greater good of fighting Voldemort. That is justifying his behavior. You said that his behavior towards Neville wasn't really that bad. That's excusing his behavior. That goes beyond just understanding his behavior to a place of overlooking the badness of his behavior.

Let me reiterate here. I am capable of grasping the difference between understanding someone's actions and justifying their actions. The problem I have is not that you said you understood Snape, or that he had good qualities. I agree with all of that. The problem I have is that, when you were discussing specific things that Snape did, it seems to me that the specific things you said justified and excused his actions. That's what bothered me.

I hope this was clear. I apologize for the length, just trying to be as clear as possible. Also I want to say that I'm not trying to attack you personally and that I only disagree with your interpretation of the books. Thank you for your time.

[(Anonymous)]

Again I say +10000000

And yeah, this is how I read what the AYRT was saying as well. They definitely didn't seem content to leave it at "He was horrible, but he was also complex and human." That I would agree with. It's this idea that what he did wasn't that bad - that people are over stating it - which I take issue with.

He TERRORIZED Neville. I mean, it's been a while since I've read the books, but I definitely recall there being passages where Neville was described as being pretty much too scared of Snape to even function in class.

When an adult - any adult, but especially an adult in a distinct position of authority - treats a child that way, that's when I write them off as a terrible human being. That doesn't mean they can't also do things that help people. But in my books, doing good does not erase the bad you've done. And Snape was relentlessly bullying towards some very innocent, vulnerable characters.

[leisuretime]

This is a comment I agree with.

[(Anonymous)]

THEN WHY ARE YOU JUSTIFYING AND EXCUSING HIS BEHAVIOR

[leisuretime]

I've commented to your comment above, but I'm not going to continue a conversation that's just going in circles and turns into this type of comment. If I wanted CAPSLOCK RAGE I'd go read Order of the Phoenix.

[(Anonymous)]

Holy fuckballs take a chill pill.

[(Anonymous)]

It's been a long time since my HP fandom days, but I recall a number of fandom people attempting not only to explain but to justify Snape's behavior toward his students, and they were not what I would call Snapewives.

The justifications included:

Snape is just a serious, demanding teacher who refuses to mollycoddle weak students, for their own good.

Harry was insolent to Snape on his first day of Potions class, and Snape naturally figured him for an arrogant, entitled brat like James and determined to take him down a peg for his own good.

Snape realizes, unlike the other teachers, that Voldemort is poised to return, and that the students need to be toughened up to prepare them for hard times ahead, for their own good.

I think all of these are bullshit, but they were advanced quite seriously by plenty of people who did not think they were married to Snape on the astral plane. The problem is that when people get too close to a character, they can't abide the idea that he could be wrong, so they feel the need to justify everything he does.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

You know where I think those justifcations are good? As the In-Character opinions of characters in fanfic. I could easily see Snape and Dumbledore citing those things as reasons for Snape's behaviour (though the second one is more only Snape's opinion).

[(Anonymous)]

I can see that; OTOH, I saw them in fandom discussions as well as fic. And when they were used in fic (usually in fic where Snape was the protagonist), they were invariably put out there uncritically; Snape (or whichever character was doing the excusing/justifying) would bring up these justifications, and the character who had been appalled at Snape's classroom behavior would basically bow their head and realize how utterly wrong they had been to criticize him.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

Yes, true. I've also seen the excuse "He needs to be tough because Potions is a dangerous class" used, seriously, by characters like Hermione.

I have come to avoid fics that are nice to Snape because I don't really believe it anymore.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'd actually agree that he needs to be tough because Potions is a dangerous class--but I'd also argue that there's a substantial difference between a tough teacher and a bully, and Snape is pretty clearly the latter.

One thing that particularly annoyed me was the claim that Lupin was continuing the Marauders' bullying of Snape by having Neville make him a laughingstock in the boggart lesson. It's not exactly Lupin's fault that Snape is Neville's worst fear!

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

Yes, I understand your point, and agree.

That's another thing I hate, miscasting actions to make their intent deliberately mean.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with this. My take on it is that for various reasons Harry, Neville and Hermione brought out the absolute worse in Snape. I am not saying this to defend him, because as an adult he should have realized that and not taken out his issues on innocent kids.