fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3285 ]

[ SECRET POST #3285 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3285 ⌋

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11. [SPOILERS for Big Bang Theory]

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14. [SPOILERS for Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi]

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15. [WARNING for sexual assault/rape]

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So over the past couple of weeks I've come across some people saying that non-Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas because it's a Christian holiday, so they're being disrespectful and appropriating from them.

In response, people have said that Christmas appropriated a bunch of traditions from other religions, so it shouldn't matter.

It's a silly argument, but it got me thinking. If a longstanding cultural practice has origins in other cultures or borrows a lot from other cultures, is it possible to appropriate it at all? Can a practice that was originally appropriative reach a point where it's authentically a part of the new culture? Or are appropriative practices always inauthentic and fair game for people from other cultures to take?

is it possible to appropriate it at all?

No, and that's why appropriation is such a stupid concept. Look at the English language. How many of our words come from other languages, either directly or heavily influenced?

Not just that, but I think somethings there's some bigotry mixed in there that people don't want to admit. Avoiding cultural borrowing completely means sticking cultures in neat little boxes, never mixing.

BUT. I think that's a case of the concept being taken too far. When I first learned of it, "appropriation" meant taking something from a culture while suppressing it. So, in that sense, non-Christians celebrating Christmas wouldn't be an issue, but Christmas itself would be, because the traditions that it borrowed were taken from religions that Christians were actively trying to wipe out.

AYRT

Avoiding cultural borrowing completely means sticking cultures in neat little boxes, never mixing.

That... is a very good point that I had not considered. The same people arguing for maintaining cultural purity and keeping outsiders from having involvement are the ones who loudly demand that their cultures be represented and respected.

But does the latter issue even apply anymore when the religions that were being suppressed either no longer exist, or aren't being suppressed anymore?

If a longstanding cultural practice has origins in other cultures or borrows a lot from other cultures, is it possible to appropriate it at all?

Probably. Cultures mesh and borrow from each other all the time, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The concept of appropriating Christmas is pretty laughable, though, at least in Western nations. It's functionally a secular holiday as well as a religious one.

Uhh haha. This example is hilarious for a number of reasons. I think it would only be disrespectful for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas if Christmas didn't have a completely secular version of itself, which is hugely cultural and non-sacred. Santa, Christmas trees, etc. And, to be even more fair, the religious traditions in which Christianity borrowed from to make Christmas don't exist anymore (neopaganism isn't the same as actual historical paganism). And furthermore, back then, it wouldn't have really mattered, it was the norm to adapt and "appropriate" between religious traditions.

At any rate, in general, appropriation is kind of a tricky topic because no tradition was really made in a vacuum, cultures have been borrowing and influencing one another since the beginning of humanity. So it's hard to ask your question if you are equating "appropriation" with "offensive". Hypothetically, I suppose a tradition could be inherently offensive if it is relatively recent, but really I think it's a case by case thing.

Do you have links to where people were making this argument?

ayrt

I'm not willing to link, because unfortunately, it's being made on social media by people I know IRL, not random strangers. :-/

Practicing Wiccan here. Stuff like this just tends to eat itself after a while. Christmas is also a weird case because as somebody mentioned below, it's celebrated in a completely non-religious form, too. Putting up some decorations and exchanging gifts isn't appropriating anything.

My nutty religious relatives (distinct from my nutty relatives and my religious relatives) do not believe in Santa Claus. That's not to say that they doubt his existence personally, but rather that they have never allowed their 4 children to believe the myth. Because "Christmas is about Jesus."

Meanwhiile, they put up a tree, decorate, and exchange gifts with one another. In this sense, I suppose one could argue that they have appropriated Christmas from the non-Christian celebrators.

Exactly what is nutty or appropriative about this?

um maybe the fact they tossed the character based on a SAINT and kept the pagan tree and festivities because they want to be soooooo Jesusy~

No, they just tossed the myth that gifts come from a fat old guy who lives at the North Pole who bears next to no resemblance to St. Nicholas the Wonder-worker, in favor of teaching their kids that we give each other gifts in honor of the gift that was given to us, of Christ assuming our nature to save us. On the other hand, the tree and festivities have been associated with Christmas for a few centuries now. If you can make a case that a Christian feast day is mostly secular, you can make at least as good a case that pagan accoutrements are mostly Christian.

Growing up in a Catholic household it always felt like there were two Christmases anyway. The one where you went to chruch and celebrated the birth of Jesus. And then there was Santa and presents and I feel like anyone could celebrate that part of it because it's not religious in any way. The whole Santa this is so far removed from the religious aspect I can't understand why anyone would find that disrespectful.

I think people can celebrate whatever the hell they want, as long as they are being respectful of the culture. Maybe it's because I was raised in a Latin American country, but I've seen people from other religions being welcomed to participate in non-Christian celebrations and it not being a big deal.

Also you can't keep something from not being influenced by other things. The world is about interacting with each other and all that, so it would be nearly impossible to not borrow things here or there, not only in religion but in life in general.

No.

Sort of related, but in the Monster High Fandom, there's three characters from the Exchange Students line. One is a bat girl from...I can't exactly remember, but it's the monster world variant of a South American country, but I've seen no major wank over her looks. Another is a troll girl from "Goreway" (who is a gamer btw. lolololol i love her~), and the last is a deer girl who is clearly based on Native American motifs. Her name is Isi Dawndancer. She's a deer spirit basically.

Now, I think she's a very busy doll and I wish her jump suit was actually like...just a deep blue or black as it'd make her poncho like thing pop more, but the fandom completely threw it's collective shit over her with only a few people in the tag defending her.

I'm on the fence. I think she's cute and don't exactly see what's wrong with her, though I do believe the over use of dream catchers is a bit much, but...yeah.

(i read from someone on there who is NA or NA decent that said that dream catchers isn't some major sacred thing and they make them to sell to tourists all the time, so it's not really appropriative, but i can't find that comment anymore AND i don't wanna parade that as fact, so...)

What do you guys think?

Edited 2016-01-02 05:27 (UTC)

Well, I worked in a gallery for years and we bought dreamcatchers from the Native American artists who made them, for resale in our gallery. They weren't sacred objects like say, a pipe or a war bonnet (which we didn't sell for just that reason).

no and I hope Christmas continues to be secularized

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3285 ]

Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?

Re: Can you appropriate something that's appropriative?