fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3294 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3294 ⌋

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They're very woobified in the art that I see cross my dash, especially Sauron. I'd never touch a story of them.

I actually like Thranduil/Thorin, and as a straight-up ship, not a hate-ship, but I want the author to put in the work of mending their relationship first or using book!Thranduil instead. I've moved over to Bard/Thranduil now though. Thorin/Thranduil worked better for me after DoS but he was too much of an ass in BoFA, and the movie was a hot mess of all characterizations.

I'm not sure what you mean by woobified art honestly? Do you mean he's portrayed as pretty? Because that's canon. Or scenes where he isn't being evil? Because being evil doesn't mean a character has to be acting evil 100% of the time. I don't think you have to say or show "this character is evil" in every single post. I think the fandom recognizes that they are both really evil and unredeemable, they just also think that they have layers and would have moments of positivity. Like, we know Sauron is really into wolves, so there is a lot of art of him enjoying his wolves.

There is a lot of crack art, though. I hate the modern AU stuff that seems vaguely popular. I'm really glad Christmas is over because I got really sick of all the dark lords in Christmas sweaters art. But I guess I don't think of crack as woobifying because no one thinks it is actually canon.

I guess I've never come across fics that work for it. I could see it in that context. But I don't spend that much time in the Hobbit fandom anyway, and what I do see is 90% movie stuff. I'm much more interested in book fics.

Edited 2016-01-11 01:04 (UTC)

I don't mean how he's portrayed physically (although that third eye is really obnoxious when that shows up). I do think that any "positivity" should only be for Sauron and only pre-seduction during his time in Valinor. The whole point of these characters is that they are the embodiment of evil. They are uncaring and don't have kind feelings - not for orcs, or each other, or animals. These are all things to be used. There's no "good" side to appeal to.

Melkor especially should never have any moment where he is actually loving. His purpose in the design is to be the anti-love - the anti-Eru. He's only ever "kind" when he's manipulating things or he's pretending it out of fear. Sauron could maybe have an arc of moving towards that, but once he rejects Eonwe's command to go to Valinor, he's out for himself from then on. He's twisted and hateful; there's no love in him. I don't see that kind of character being especially loving before that choice either.

They're just the epitome of characters who do not understand love, and I can't see them having any attachment to anything but themselves. (And I also kind of think they hate themselves.)

Hmmm. Okay. I guess I just disagree with the idea that evil characters, even characters that are meant to be the embodiment of evil, can't have any positive traits at all.

And we do know that in canon Sauron at least is attached to Melkor at least in the sense of being a completely loyal servant devoted to using his skills to bring about Melkor's goals. That doesn't have to be love at all, but it is canon that he's loyal. So he is attached in a sense to Melkor at least. And it is canon that for Melkor Sauron is at least a bit different. He's second in command, and he's the one who carries out things and plans things. And every single other of Melkor's servants is physically altered in some way, but Sauron gets to stay himself.

Anyway, I totally get why people wouldn't ship or even wouldn't want to see positive traits. I just really strongly disagree with the idea that showing positive traits is woobifying.

I'm not saying showing positive traits is woobifying. That's actually two separate things for me. The woobying is a lot more how Sauron is so helpless to Melkor and all the crack-shit that I see (there's not an actual lot of them that's not crack, as I don't think there could be for this ship).

I also think that it depends what the positive trait is for an evil character and what the canon is. There are villains in other canons that I can see having good traits. I can see Saruman being decent back in the day. Osse was a step away from being Sauron but his love for his wife basically saved him. But Sauron does not have good traits. He is Melkor-lite. He wants to destroy and twist anything that's living to make a mockery of the Valar's and Eru's good work.

I don't think canon is what you think it is. We don't know how Melkor reacts when Sauron screws up. We don't know that Gothmog didn't like looking badass and scary. We don't know that there aren't other maiar who are allowed to keep their fair forms or that Sauron only keeps his so he can keep manipulating people for Melkor's ends. I feel that Sauron is the second in command because he's the most powerful and usually gets his job done. If something happened to him, I don't see Melkor caring any more than he would if a good sword broke. Sauron is a means to an end.

And I don't recall reading anything about Sauron trying to get Melkor back after the First Age. I recall him using Melkor's name, but why wouldn't you? It furthers Sauron's agenda. I don't have a problem with "evil" characters having positive traits if that's consistent with canon. But Melkor and Sauron are more caricatures than characters. When I say they are evil's embodiment, then that doesn't leave room for any good. Evil characters can have good traits but evil itself cannot because it's evil. These two are the latter so they cannot have good traits to be who they are. Like I said, there might be a little wiggle-room with Sauron but I think the only thing that attracts him to Melkor is Melkor's thirst for power and dominion. When he's gone, Sauron is happy to have that for himself. He only doesn't challenge Melkor because he's not powerful enough to and serving Melkor achieves his own ends but if they had won, Melkor would've ended up killing Sauron (or Sauron would've tried a coup) because there is no trust or love between them. There can't be to be who they are.

Okay, going to have to agree to disagree then because I don't see that interpretation in canon at all.

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